Time Tunnel, Sonny Liston in 1962 defends his title against 1970 Joe Frazier.

Must day, the Foreman camp really did their homework on Frazier.
George used good footwork slip past Joe and keep Joe off balance. He did this at least three times in the fight.
Those uppercuts George threw, the ones in the first round, were always followed by a left hook. The uppercuts were straightening Joe up, and the left hook behind it was really punishing Joe.
And then you had George pushing Frazier back too, for which Mercante warned him.
It was a damn clever gameplan.

But I still think the biggest reason for Joe's crushing defeat was that Foreman wasn't impressed by Frazier's left hook.
Joe couldn't keep Foreman off him because George was walking through him.
How are you supposed to win a fight when the other guy doesn't get hurt by your shots? Especially a pressure fighter? What's he supposed to do?

It's common knowledge, but this also wasn't a great version of Frazier, who was fighting about 10 pounds over his best weight and maybe overconfident.

The earler and better version that Liston would be fighting is not that guy.

 

Nothing I posted is a strawman. He quit against one opponent in his mid 30s against a fighter as different from Frazier as the mind can conceive. It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest he quits, in every single H2H matchup he's pitted in as some have down here. Maybe if he had a history of quitting against other opponents, you'd have an argument but he didn't so you don't.

 

If i Picked the time both foreman and Liston faced the best adversity, it would, logically, be against fighters Who were bad for them style wise, like the slicksters heavyweight.
But even here, Sonny takes it.
The time foreman faced the best adversity would be against Muhammad ali and Jimmy young, 2 fights where he got grilled badly (so badly he had mental breakdowns).
If i Picked the time time where Sonny faced the best adversity, it would be the 2 ali fights and the Machens fight.
Liston handled machen , who was the 1960's version of Jimmy young very well and beat him convincingly by UD.
Sonny , actually, put up a terrific fight with a PRIME ali (infinitely better than the one who whupped george), despite fighting with a badly injured left shoulder and the fact that he was atleast 14 years older than Ali.
A prime George was completly Outclassed by An old Muhammad, while an injured Sonny managed to make it a dead even fight in the judges scorecard before the fight was stopped after Liston's corner claimed that he literally could not lift his arm at all.
Despite all of that, Sonny fared a lot better, and Muhammad ali himself said so!
"There was probably no bigger challenge in my career than the one George Foreman posed in Kinshasa, Zaire. Strangely, although regaining my crown will remain one of my greatest thrills, it wasn’t one of my toughest fights.

The toughest would be my fight with Sonny Liston, when I won the title in 1964."
https://www.ringtv.com/395567-best-i-faced-muhammad-ali-1/

 

I have no fight where Foreman had to fight with a badly injured left shoulder or a match where he had to throw the fight for the mob.

 

What a way to counter my argument!!!

 

A better question would be "do you have a fight where foreman used an ointment - a legal one - on his bad shoulder, and his opponent got some on his gloves, and touched his face, and it effected his eyes."?
No, because he never had to fight with a badly injured left shoulder against ali, and if he did....well this would have been a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyy embarrasing loss, considering the fact he lost to a past it ali while being in his absolute best......

 

Who the hell do you think you are? A historian? A boxing expert? Angelo Dundee?
Muhammad Ali himself said his fight with an old, out of shape, past his best, washed up, over the hill, 100 years old, 137 years old, prehistoric, skeleton, dead body, old fart, badly injured Liston was tougher than his fight with a prime, in his absolute best, 25 years old george foreman.

Claiming Liston got whooped and did not give ali a tough fight despite having the sources which claims the absolute opposite gives me an idea about your response to adversity!!!
Maybe it was as bad as prime Foreman's, or even worse!!
Get over it man. You have been there for almost 10 years damnit you should be the smarter man with more boxing knowledges than i do!

 

What a harsh portrait of Liston who dominated an era. Foley, Williams, Valdez, a clear decision over Machen, twice flattening Patterson the way no one, not Bonavena, Quarry, Ali or anyone else did .. Maybe Joe beats him and maybe Joe doesn't but to paint a portrait of Liston as some overhyped clown is absurd .. Manny Steward, a pretty sharp eye, said he feels a prime Liston may have been the all time best ever.

 

Look, you're entitled to your opinion, but when it comes to historical accuracy and Sonny Liston, trying to get to the bottom of things and make absolute blanket statements with 100% certainty is absurd. Not even the best boxing historians, detectives, or government agents/forensics are completely certain of what happened.

It's also easy for you to look back in hindsight 40 years later claiming what you would or wouldn't have done in Liston's shoes with all that shady business going on...you have no clue whatsoever. For all we know they may have threatened to dump his wife in a lake, who knows. Maybe he really did quit out of frustration, maybe he really was badly injured and tried to win, maybe a little bit of both. You certainly don't know enough to make a proper judgement based on 2nd/3rd hand experience decades later without being there or knowing anybody involved.

How about you just stick to the discussion of prime Liston vs prime Frazier and leave it at that, argue based on who would win according to styles/skills/physical attributes etc. Arguing that Liston would quit is such a cop out. It's like claiming Vitali loses every hypothetical match due to a bad cut or claiming Duran always quits like he did in the 2nd Leonard fight. It's silly and goes nowhere. If you're honest opinion is he quits again Frazier just say so, no point in going back and forth for dozens of pages with people who disagree.

 

LOL, C'mon liston is not my favorite or any thing, just trying to gives you something that is called "FACTS".
which is a thing that is known or proved to be true. I swear im not lying!
Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=wha...hUKEwjiqYPfw_zwAhVox4UKHeHBD-MQ4dUDCA4&uact=5

 

all i see is Ali landing a combination of ineffective jabs and Sonny pushing him back with his sledghammer jab!
C'mon don't be mad at me, you're my friend now, if that does put a smile on your face.

 

YYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!

 

It wasn't an order it was a suggestion. There was nothing rude or offensive in my post, you just seem to be incredibly sensitive.

And everything I wrote about you being clueless about what happened with Liston is true, yet you seem to be 100% convinced you have all the answers.

 

I think you make some very interesting and excellent arguments. Just a couple points, I would like to touch.

I think arguments that he was still in his prime against Ali, despite his age, everything else going on in his life, and actual film of him compared to his bouts with Machen, and Williams. is shortsighted at best and more likely disingenuous. I feel he was already starting to slip by the time he got to Patterson particularly by the 2nd fight. Unfortunately, Patterson was unable to extend Liston a little later to test this theory. We very well may have seen cracks above the surface. Patterson just didn't have the attributes to exploit it. That being said, your description of Liston takes it a bit far to say the least "old, out of shape, past his best, washed up, over the hill, 100 years old, 137 years old, prehistoric, skeleton, dead body, old fart, badly injured Liston". I don't think he was half that bad especially considering his post-Ali career.

Also how was he "100 years old" and "137 years old"? I'll grant you this. If anyone's two different ages, it would be Sonny.

Regarding your adversity response comparison, I think you make an excellent point. I think the best opponents we use for a comparison like this are Williams, Machen, for Liston, and Lyle and Young for foreman as they seem to not only be the most similar opponents stytistically, but they were also two of the very few who gave Liston and Foreman actual adversity in their careers.

Let's see how they responded.

Foreman

Lyle: Foreman was dropped twice, and badly hurt numerous times. He very badly needed a plan B because Plan A wasn't getting the job done to say the least. His plan B was evidently, "let's keep going with Plan A" and he refused, or was unable to make adjustments, and basically lucked out with Lyle tiring himself.

Young: Foreman's inability to adapt was also once again on display, and ultimately was the reason he lost against Young. He was being out boxed from a distance, and badly needed to change his tactics. Once again, he seemed unwilling (or unable) to do so.

Liston

Williams: The Big Cat was bigger, faster, stronger, and for my money more powerful than Liston and was battering him with hellascious shots that would've knocked many lesser men out. Williams bloodied and broke Liston's nose, backed him up, and visibly hurt him. Liston himself said he thought Williams was going to knock him out and said he thought "Williams had cut my throat".

"Williams hit Liston with a left hook that would have finished any other man" Gross remembered. "It would have torn some fighters hears off. Liston just blinked and came right back."

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54152307/fort-lauderdale-news/

Probably the only time Liston was in real physical duress in his prime. But he remained calm, changed his game plan, both things that seemed to elude Foreman in the next decade and came back to brutally KO Williams.

Machen: A cute slickster. Very similar fighter to Young. Out boxed Liston the first two rounds badly. Liston needed to change his game plan badly and (unlike Foreman) proceeded to do so. He put away the heavy artillery, out boxed Machen, outscored him, rendered him defenseless, and did not drop another round. He showed a different facet to his game many thought he was incapable of.

Another thing that should be added, is that after both of Foreman's losses (in his 1st career) it destroyed him mentally (see Toronto fiasco) and retired him. You can't say the same about Liston

So to sum up, the above circumstances actually seem to (clearly imo) show, Liston was actually the calmer and more patient under adversity, and was able to make adjustments when he needed to because the fight wasn't going his way.

Yet he's the one who couldn't handle adversity, and would quit as soon as someone put the heat on him.

 

I really didn't mean to say Liston was that old or washed up bro. Just tryin to make this as clear as possible, i thought this could have been a way to make this very simple so he would understand. i got riled up a bit.
But he's entitled to his opinion and free to say anything he wants to say at the end of the day.