Time Tunnel, Sonny Liston in 1962 defends his title against 1970 Joe Frazier.

I definitely wouldn't be claiming Foreman "lucked out". That win was well and truly earned in a huge way. Immense heart was needed and Foreman showed exactly what depths he could come back from. This sort of win could easily be turned around at Liston.

 

I agree, Foreman showed immense heart and Foreman lucking out is definitely a stretch. But even though, Foreman may have won, he definitely showed deficiencies with adjusting in the heat of the moment while under fire.

I disagree that win "could easily be turned around at Liston" mainly because I don't believe Lyle could've gotten Liston in that position in the first place. Liston's boxing skills, jab, and defense, all of which Foreman seemed to abandon, were to good.

 

So basically Foreman was physically tougher and dealt with adversity through sheer toughness and aggression. Meanwhile, Liston was more mentally mature remaining calm under pressure and could make adjustments when facing adversity (although he could take a good hit too).

 

That double handed fister , Ive seen that before

https://i2-prod.irishmirror.ie/inco...s1227b/Vladimir-Klitschko-vs-Kubrat-Pulev.jpg

https://www.ringtv.com/wp-content/u...oern-pollex_bongarts-getty-images-770x514.jpg

 

Pulev must have around 25% neanderthal DNA. He looks like a a caveman with a modern haircut and gloves.

 

lol

 

Pretty terrific post ...

 

Thank you! Means a lot coming from yourself! Put a lot of effort into it.

 

I very much like the Williams / Machen to Lyle/Young analogy ... not only never heard it before, never even thought of it ... well thought through and presented.

 

I think Foreman coming back on Lyle is right up there in terms of heart with Holmes roaring back from Shavers and Weaver, Bowe getting floored by Holyfield, Louis coming back and blowing out Walcott.

George's heart had tons of Championship quality...in fact, I daresay that besides the Frazier fight (which mostly showed a guy who'd figured the other, diminished guy out thoroughly pre-fight imo) the Lyle fight would be most essential to anyone being introduced to George's classic style.

Sure, George showed deficiencies in the Lyle fight, but it's rare you see a fighter draw up THAT much courage in the face of getting his head knocked in.

But then, I tend to value Championship heart as much as skill in a boxer, which may be weird.

 

I meant by the usual Liston quit against Ali brigade. Regardless Foreman came back to win from depths greater than Liston, Tyson, Vitali, Marciano and various others ever did.

Heck if we nutted it out to the nth degree looking at just how hurt Foreman was and how often you could possibly even include the likes of Ali, Holmes, Louis and basically every other ATG heavyweight. That fight was BRUTAL.

 

Nothing weird about it.

We can debate purse bids, resume, ranking, fancy skills, social media following, promotion, who looks good on film, etc all day. But at the end of the day it boils down to how tough you are because a boxing match is still a fight no matter how you slice it. The winner is often decided based on whoever is tougher just as much as it is decided based on skill and ability. Anyone who has been in a fight will agree.

 

Agreed. The look on his face during the 2nd knockdown was like "how on Earth did I get here and why am I putting up with this pain and agony?". He had to scrape himself off the canvas like melted grilled cheese on concrete. Hard to even fathom how much his mind was racing to not only win the fight, but just to survive and not get his head torn off by the aggressive former inmate/gang member with gloves. Then in the corner between rounds his eyes were bulging and glancing around rapidly while listening to Clancy and breathing heavily.. Plus he had the public perception in his mind, he needed that win more than air and water if he was going to continue boxing. They were filled with doubts after the Zaire disaster.

 

Fair enough even if I might disagree. But yeah, I agree Foreman displayed a lot of heart getting off the canvas to beat Lyle in an ATG slugfest. How did you like the rest of my post however John? I'd love to see your opinion as I value it greatly.

 

That's a great summation.