Time Tunnel, Sonny Liston in 1962 defends his title against 1970 Joe Frazier.

What part would you disagree on?

Post #94 or #97 Swag?

 

The latter. I think Marciano may have climbed out of a deeper hole, when facing Charles in the rematch. But the rest of your post, I agree whole-heartedly.

 

I'd have to rewatch it but man would he have to be in some serious trouble!!! On another note it's great to see you crediting The Rock.

As for post #97 -

Ok we've established, i believe, that Foreman in no way lucked out. Incredible heart, determination, pride, desperation and power won that fight. Both men ended up stripped bare of any glitter and polish and neanderthal qualities were embraced.

As for the second part we all know peak Foreman was quite one dimensional but oh my what a dimension it was.

We are now on the same wavelength in that i meant certain posters would say well at least Foreman gutted it out and rose from the the dead where as Sonny quit. We know who they are.

I would wholeheartedly agree Liston would be too polished and good for Lyle and have less trouble. I would also put forward that an undefeated Foreman not trying to change his style with a view toward the Ali rematch may well have overwhelmed Lyle with his more aggressive approach. I would also factor the below mentioned layoff into things as well.

Another very pertinent point that needs to be taken on board with fairness and balance in mind is that Foreman had not fought in 15 months and this was his rebound fight after being stopped and stripped bare by Muhammad Ali and this rebound bout was against a top 5 contender!!! By contrast in this time Lyle had 4 fights and tho beaten in that lot by Ali he had rebounded with a KO win over Shavers.

That's my honest expanded thoughts.

 

Foreman showed great heart against Lyle but I’ve read many arguments that he also stayed down half by quitting choice in Zaire. He gave up before he went down. Also Liston was an old inactive man fighting a near prime exceptional force horrific style match up while Foreman was a young man fighting a hard punching much older and limited fighter in Lyle. I just don’t buy the arguments making a prime Liston anything less than an exceptional heavyweight fighter.

 

I would favor Liston over Frazier. Stylistically, an elite brawler with excellent jab will beat an elite swarmer. Liston certainly has the strength to roughhouse Frazier if he got close, Foreman said Liston was the strongest man he ever faced. Liston is also a rare fighter who fought well inside and outside, he wouldn't get too much trouble with Frazier at any range. Liston late stoppage or wide UD.

 

I would never argue Liston was anything less than an exceptional heavyweight HG and have actually argued dozens of times what a force he is. Read closely and you will see i am referring to the tired old argument of others in order to show Swag that talking down Foreman's gutsy effort against Lyle can and will be countered by Liston detractors/haters with claims of no heart and quitting when the going gets tough.

Lyle was a very good heavyweight. Age is irrelevant as he had a late start to boxing due to prison and had been fighting for just under 5 years when he fought Foreman. Lyle was at his best and in his prime. He had just KO'd Shavers after coming off the floor as Holmes did and in his prior bout he led Ali (for the unified title) on the cards after 10 rounds. His struggles came against boxers more than punchers.

You could make an argument Foreman gave up in Zaire but i certainly wouldn't be on board with it. Given the conditions, how obviously exhausted he was and everything else i'd say he just couldn't quite make the count. What did he fail the count by? Half a second if that? That would be pretty amazing timing for a guy that exhausted.

Actually many including Foreman believe he did beat the count. Watch it closely. Foreman said he picked it up at 4 and was clear headed.

I fully believe he, at the very least, tried to beat the count, absolutely. Obviously he was never going to win and losing to The GOAT certainly doesn't kill George or Sonny. They are a massive part of Ali's legend after all.

 

Frazier didn't have the NOI backing him, nor would there be the mafia threatening Liston if they fought. Nor would a prime Liston have shoulder issues or hooked on alcohol and inactive.

These are all potential contributing factors to why he may have quit. So yes the reason does matter if you want to keep bringing up heart in a hypothetical h2h. That's why I said going back to Liston quitting as a potential outcome is flawed even if it did happen.

 

1-we know for a fact Liston had a shoulder injury as we have evidence he went to the hospital to be treated for it. A healthy Liston would not have a shoulder issue and it would not be a factor in a h2h fight. We know for a fact the NOI was affiliated with Muhammad and frequently threatened people and we know Frazier had nothing to do with them so the NOI scaring Liiston would not be a factor. We also know Liston had mob connections. We know for a fact Liston was inactive and drinking after the Patterson wins and we know for a fact he did not take Ali seriously and dismissed him. This would not be a factor in a h2h fight. Do I even need to continue or do I have to walk you through basic common sense one baby step at a time?

2-Liston is in fact better overall boxer than Foreman. Better jab, better stamina, better fundamentals, remained calm under pressure, more accurate. Foreman was a little bigger, hit harder, and had a better chin but those have nothing whatsoever to do with skill. The only thin Foreman does better technique wise is cutting off the ring and was better at manipulating the guard/walking guys into shots. I don't even think the most hardcore Foreman fans will claim he was a better boxer than Liston.

3-I really don't see how heart would ever be a factor given that in Ali 1 we know for a fact he was injured and couldn't raise his arm and in Ali 2 that circumstances surrounding it have been hotly debated probably since before either of us were born and even the US government hasn't provided concrete proof of anything. It's a lazy cop out. This is no different from clinging to Duran quitting, Vitali's face being cut, David Haye's leg going out, etc and pretending like those are always lingering possibilities in every h2h fight. A matchup means the fighter is 100% healthy and focused both physically AND mentally. The Liston who fought Williams, Folley, Machen, and Patterson had no quit in him whatsoever. Just like the Duran of the first Leonard fight had no quit in him or the Tyson who took bombs from Ruddock for 12 rounds. Using later fights where someone is NOT at their best is irrelevant. That's all I'm saying.

 

That's a good post, and I don't rate Liston as highly as many.
Good points though.

 

JT I rarely disagree with your excellent posts and don't here .. it's all kinda splitting hairs .. please keep your terrific insight coming as we all profit from hearing your voice.

 

Appreciate that highly fury!

 

Love your work HG, have for years of course. I remember the day you first joined here. I can't rememebr who it was that got you over here but i remember them speaking highly of you when you arrived. Through many differing opinions and insights we can gather information and make our own mind up.

 

Thanks pal .. to me this place is about learning, open minds and sane debate ... I totally remember being a bit of a hothead myself back in the day and am in no position to cast stones but try to be in a better place and enjoy the joint for the most part ..

 

I do remember you being a little hot headed but haven't we all been. Pretty sure i may have had the odd decent outburst in the last year or two but it takes a special someone to wind me up

 

I'd like to say a few things on behalf of Joe.
We sometimes forget how good he was.
For instance, he didn't have just a left hook, not by a long shot.
Watch say for example the Quarry fights. His right hand was doing plenty of damage, and he was throwing it pretty often.
It's overshadowed by his legendary left, but at his best, his right hand was more than useful.
Also, his head movement wasn't erratic. He didn't simply bob up and down, but used a fair bit of lateral head movement and decent upper body sway. He was perpetual motion and not that easy to hit. Even Ali, a sharpshooter of note, failed quite miserably at times to nail him cleanly in FOTC for instance.
And he didn't have a half-bad jab either. Being that short, it was never going to be in his main arsenal, but I think he applied it quite well when the occasion demanded.
It was a useful little punch that could surprise opposition. Even Ali noted that Joe's jab was surprisingly good.
And even between getting murdered by George, he managed to land that jab plumb in George's face a few times.

Never would I suggest he jabs with Liston, which would be crazy, but it might have some part to play in this matchup. Certainly I think his right would.

I've been watching a lot of Liston lately, seeing how and where Joe could take advantage, and how and where Liston could do what Foreman did.
I'm impressed with Liston, more than I was a few weeks ago. He's good, better than I thought.
It's funny when you do a 'deep dive' the things you missed before.
I'm not confident Joe can beat Liston, I have to say. But he certainly has a chance.
I can't specifically fault Liston. I don't think he was the quickest (not slow though) and I think he was pretty lazy bringing his jab back. He always dropped it after throwing it and didn't bring it back sharply. A fighter with good timing and a fast right hand could exploit that.
But here it wouldn't matter at all. I really like his left hook-a useful and powerful punch, and his right hand too. Both great punches.
Now, the uppercut. He used it well against Patterson who did dip quite a bit. He even had somewhat of a hooker-cut, not unlike Ruddock's smash, though usually thrown closer inside and with less gusto. I would be more worried about that punch than his standard uppercut. It's just comes in at a weird angle.
I think there are times Sonny could have benefitted from throwing the uppercut/hooker-cut more inside.
He often used the left hook to the body or head, and the right when in closer ranges or when someone was on the ropes, when maybe the uppercut would have been a better punch.
From what I have seen, Liston would often throw the uppercut in isolation, with no follow-up punch.
Or at least, no specifically planned follow-up, like Foreman did against Joe, where in the first round he was following up the uppercut with a punishing left hook.
(In the second round George did this less, if at all. I think poor Joe was obviously in dire straights by then, and George more or less threw caution to the wind by then.)
Anyway, just an observation.

Honestly I think it depends on who manages to establish their ideal range better, and more.
Liston I think will smash Joe to pieces if Joe can't get inside. There is no plan B for Joe here, not that he ever really had that option.
Whether or not Joe can make it his kind of fight is very hard to say. Certainly, I think he's good enough to force his way inside in many points in the fight.
No fighter except Foreman kept Joe exlusively on the outside and on the end of his punches. Not even Ali, who enjoyed every stylistic advantage imaginable over Joe, could do it.
Joe's getting inside here, the question is if he can do it often enough to turn the fight in his favour. That's really anyone's guess.

That's not to say Liston is dead in the water on the inside, far from it. He's got a nice punch selection inside and didn't seem uncomfortable there. But this is naturally Joe Frazier territory and Liston would be better served to not let this be a contest at close range, at least not for long periods.
Then there are the intangibles of both, but some might not be as relevant, depending on what kind of fight this becomes.

In any event, I don't see a blowout. I just don't. I think Sonny would fight Joe differently to the way Foreman fought him. Very intriguing fight this.