Timeline of the premiere WW in the world.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Nov 19, 2011.


Page 6 of 7
  1. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล

    82,426
    1,478
    Sep 7, 2008
    Nelson Cuevas?
     
    Flea Man, Nov 28, 2011
    Flea Man, Nov 28, 2011
    #76
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    Palomino didn't fight for nearly a year. During this inactivity nelson was knocking out top 5 ranked opposition.
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 28, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 28, 2011
    #77
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    Robinson's victories over servo don't impress me half as much as the victories scored by each other between cocoa, williams and burley.

    Cochrane's championship spell was a joke with only one meaningful ww victory in 6 years. Kaplan had defeated zivic months prior to red anyways. Therefore servo beating red doesn't really impress me at all and certainly not to the level where i'd ever consider him above robinson at any point in their careers.
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 28, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 28, 2011
    #78
  4. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,776
    322
    Dec 12, 2005
    I agree that Ryan was the premiere WW at the time -the difference is this- in my successions, battles between two American claimants is less weighty than one top claimant facing the champion of England and winning. That's a better indication of "World" as opposed to "American" laurels.

    That for me identifies the successor to a vacant throne back then, even if he is not the premeire fighter in the division at the time.

    PS/ Yes, those warring claimants are similar to today's WBS belt-holders -even if they fought more and sought to fight more and there were no little tyrants in bad suits telling them they can't! Also, it doesn't speak well of this era when the best comparison is between today -and 100 years ago when there was no real regulation! Talk about regression.
     
    Stonehands89, Nov 29, 2011
    Stonehands89, Nov 29, 2011
    #79
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    your right, but for me, that's the very essence of boxing at the highest level; 2 or 3 men all thinking they're the best in the division and seeing how their claims develop and strengthen over time. It has a primitive purity about that I like.

    What i mean is, when you strip past all the political bull**** and sanctioning fees we're left with a fighter claiming to be the best and fans judging whether he is indeed the best or not.

    Are you going to post your successions list?

    What's your criteria for a vacant throne? I find by usual typical criteria Robinson vs Tommy Bell never really cuts it so I'd love to here your take on it.

    Thanks for the info the other day on Cocoa kid as well, came in veyr handy when evaluating and for me, two things hindered his standing with hindsigth: 1 was henry armstrong not defending against him ut still arguably beating better opposition and another was the leto knockout; it seems so out of character and it really hindered his career for a bit with some losses and robberies he soon suffered.
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 29, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 29, 2011
    #80
  6. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    279
    Jul 22, 2004
    Carlos Palomino: (june)1976-(september)1978 [goes inactive whilst pipino smashes ranzany]
    Nelson Cuevas: (september)1978-(january)1979 [claim usurped when benitez beats palomino]

    Cuevas wasn't really taking on better opposition than Palomino was he though, it seems harsh to depose him

    Roberto Duran: (june)1980-(november)1980 [loses rematch to ray whilst tommy is smashing everyone]

    I think it's strange Leonard doesn't regain the title, when he you know, regained the title

    Oscar De La Hoya: (september)1997-(feb)1999 [struggles with ike whilst tito batters pea]

    I thought Quartey won, did you? Pea was very inactive and 36 by 99, isn't Quartey's achievement better providing you have him winning? If you had DLH winning, given Quartey is pretty much prime, is that not a better win than this version of Whitaker?

    Zab Judah: (feb)2005-(jan)2006 [loses to carlos claim usurped by margo]

    That's an odd one, I mean Baldomir beat Judah and Gatti in '06, also holds a win over Clottey and was unbeaten for 7years. Even if Margarito does look better on film, his best wins over that 2 years are Clottey (after you had him deposed), Cintron and Lujan

    Miguel Cotto: (april)2008-(july)2008 [battered by margarito]
    Antonio Margarito: (july)2008-(jan)2009 [smashed by sugar shane]

    Could Paul Williams have a shout during this period, before he left the division at the end of '08 (when he said he'd come back for Margo/Cotto/Mayweather/Pacman into 09), after Margo beat Cotto, Williams had a win over everyone he'd fought in the division, including Margo and 2 1st round KOs, including Quintana
     
    PowerPuncher, Nov 29, 2011
    PowerPuncher, Nov 29, 2011
    #81
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    I think nelson was, carlos was inactive and nelson battered ranzanz who was a high ranked contender. Although ranzanz had lost to someone who carlos defeated. It's close I just think inactive vs ranzany win favours nelson.

    I think considering the circumstances leonard secured a great victory but contextually allowed hearns to come across as a dominant killing machine who was regarded as a better fighter at that time in the division. Who was the actual betting favourite going into the fight?

    Ike was inactive, as much as pea was. Whilst a razor thin victory for oscar was brilliant, it wasn't as good as a domination over the man who'd just beaten oscar.

    Marg beating cintron and clottey is better than bald beating judah and gatti imo, but not by much. Infact this was the toughest call in the whole timeline.

    Cotto was coming off a win over mosley whilst marg was coming off a win over cintron. The two meeting certainly led to the winner being my pick.
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 29, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 29, 2011
    #82
  8. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    279
    Jul 22, 2004
    Here's 1 for you mate, Glenfiddich for £16, print off a £2 voucher on the Glenfiddich website and pop into Asda where it's £18

    1. It's Pipino not Nelson mate, I always thought Palomino the better but less flashy of the 2 myself, plus he was lineal, but yea it would have been nice for a unification between the 2

    2. You could argue Hearns wasn't quite mixing in the same class, especially retrospectively with Duran-Cuevas

    3. Yea but Ike was prime (ish), Whitaker was a coke head and done

    4. Well Clottey is sort of irrelevant by your timescale. Cintron, certainly never has the wins that Judah picked up, neither has Clottey for that matter.

    5. But Williams had beaten Margarito who was the winner and by that stage had beat every man he'd ever faced. Marg also ducked the rematch
     
    PowerPuncher, Nov 29, 2011
    PowerPuncher, Nov 29, 2011
    #83
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    Cheers for that 1!

    1. Wasn't pipino just a nickname?

    2. There is that argument and it could be argued that leonard beating duran is better than any victory hearns secured at ww. Perfectly valid counter argument but I still think hearns had a monstrous aura about him which was heightened by the less than monstrous affair in new orleans.

    3. I'd argue that coke head pea is still much better than prime inactive ike.

    4. It's very close between marg and bald and I don't buy into the retrospective criticisms of bald being shite, I just don't think he was as good as marg and a win over twice beaten past prime judah isn't a great deal different, in my eyes, than a win over a prime unbeaten cintron. I might even look into the possibility of marg usurpin g judah's claim; I could have been blinded by judah having all the belts.

    5. The cotto that marg beat was much more proven and regarded than the marg that williams beat. Plus williams went 1-1 against quintana basically exposing a weakness for southpaws he was never able to overcome at any point in his career. Maybe williams was the best in the division but being ducked isn't enough; he never really outperformed anyone at any point and his close win over marg doesn't surpass marg's over cotto.
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 29, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 29, 2011
    #84
  10. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,776
    322
    Dec 12, 2005
    ... Cocoa Kid was so prolific that a KO loss every now and then is to be expected -I bet his ghost is laughing at these guys today who brag about being undefeated at a measly 42-0. He's crying too, knowing the obscene money they make for facing guys far less tough, skilled, and dangerous.

    Speaking of dangerous, Leto was a tough, tough guy. Take a look at his record.

    This content is protected


    As for my work. Well, I'm calling them "The True Successions" and it has been a huge project. Huge! I have a domain and plan on building a website -once I find someone good who is willing to do it for me on the cheap. The successions will feature prominantly on it.
     
    Stonehands89, Nov 29, 2011
    Stonehands89, Nov 29, 2011
    #85
  11. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

    38,034
    93
    Nov 10, 2008
    The fights are close but Rodriguez won them all clearly apart from maybe the first. Anyone who has seen them agrees.

    Cheers for that seen that in the paper, going to have to pop in and get some glenfiddoch
     
    GPater11093, Nov 30, 2011
    GPater11093, Nov 30, 2011
    #86
  12. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    Hmmmm interesting.

    I have only seen them 8 rounds as I say but I'll look out for them.

    as well as the ones pp mentioned on my toher thread; freitas & corrales vs casamayor.
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 30, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 30, 2011
    #87
  13. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

    38,034
    93
    Nov 10, 2008
    There a lot easier to get these days.

    Seriosuly LMR proves hes better, and I'm a massive Griffith fan.
     
    GPater11093, Nov 30, 2011
    GPater11093, Nov 30, 2011
    #88
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009

    I'll se what I can do, could really shake up quite a lot of things if I score all 4 towards LMR. Changes it up massively.
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 30, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 30, 2011
    #89
  15. Mr Butt

    Mr Butt Boxing Junkie Full Member

    14,678
    186
    May 16, 2009
    matt wells has a shout
     
    Mr Butt, Nov 30, 2011
    Mr Butt, Nov 30, 2011
    #90
Page 6 of 7