Tokyo Douglas vs Joe Frazier

Frazier might be so marked up from Douglas's telescopic jab that his eyes begin to shut by the halfway mark.Frazier is the greater fighter but that night in Tokyo, Douglas would have been a handful for anyone.Frazier never got off the floor to win against the type of punchers Tyson faced, the only top puncher he met used him as a yo yo. Mathis wasn't bigger than Douglas , he was just fatter, and he didn't have superior footwork.Mathis had been built up on an assortment of journeymen, he had no business contesting title fight ,even if it was only the NY State version.

 

Ruddock hit Tyson plenty and he didn't "wear down his will", this oft repeated crap is lazy analysis and incorrect.

 

"Often quit when things got rough? " Prior to the Tyson fight only one of his bouts might fit that description.

 

I stand corrected.

 

Frazier was able to get around Alis jab. Most people rate Ali as having one of the top 5 jabs at heavy. Douglass would have his moments and control the pace for a while but Joe eventually imposes his will.

Joe already beat a fighter very similar to douglass in mathis. Tall, heavy, lazy, inconsistent but occasionally surprises pople with good footwork and a jab.

Joe got off the floor to win against bonavena. Neither bonavena nor foreman could keep joe from getting up the ref had to save him from hinself against the latter. Unless you think douglass is some sort of godly slugger...? He wasnt, he used accumulation punching and it took him 10 rounds of non stop combinations, jabs, and right crosses to finally drop the smaller tyson.

 

I Can't see picking James Douglas on the basis of something he did in ONE night and in all honesty, against a man who's mental preparation and state had just as much to do with that upset. Douglas was beaten by Jesse Ferguson, Mike white and Tony Tucker. His condition was oft crappy. And while he could box a bit he wasn't on the level of a Muhammad Ali who's jab Frazier regularly slipped and came up banging with the left hook. It's not outside the realm of possibility that Buster Douglas MIGHT have beaten Joe Frazier, but to outright FAVOR him to do it is insanity.

 

I want to say similar to the Ellis fight but then i have to really consider the size discrepancy there

I think Buster really killed his historical standing by showing up fat vs Holyfield. If he performed a little better even in defeat he may have seemed like less of a fluke

 

I wouldn't say he," got around it ,"he looked like a gargoyle after those fights. Tyson took a shot better than Frazier imo,and Bonavena was never a top puncher and he had Frazier on ***** street.

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You clearly never watched the ali frazier trilogy then. Frazier is one of the few people who could slip and get past Alis jab. He took damage, yes obviously, but in all 3 fights he was eventually able to work his way inside and go to war.

Oscar had 44 kos in 58 wins, id day that qualifies as being a pretty hard banger.

No, frazier was never on qveer street. He got right back up inmediately after both knockdowns and went right after oscar.

Again, unless you think douglass had a better jab than ali and hit harder than foreman he isnt knocking joe out. Are we really having this conversation? I already acknowledged frazier would strugle and have to take heavy shots to get inside due to the style matchup. It wouldnt be easy for either man. In a 2/3 contest i could see douglas winning one.

 

I watched them when they happened.Then bought them on Super 8mm and later video.
Lamar Clark scored 42 kos in 43 wins all over nobodies. It isn't the quantity it's the quality. Who was the best fighter Bonavena ko'd?
If Frazier wasn't on ***** street he wouldn't have gone down again would he?

 

You watched them that many times and you still cant remember what happened??? Thik about it, frazier has shorter arms. If frazier coudnt slip and get past Ali's jab he never would have landed the left hook.

You are using revisionist history because you know you'll have your foot in your mouth if you acknowledge he could slip and weave past alis jab (which was one of the best). Again, unless you think douglas had the best jab in history, frazier would eventually be able to get past it.

As for bonavena and clark, both obviously hit hard. It doesnt matter how good your opponents were, 40 kos is 40 kos you dont score that many by beig featherfisted. Skill, strategy, combinations, and ring iq are a different issue. Douglas didnt hit as hard as foreman or bonavena so the issue of frazier being on qveer street is irrelevant--especially since he got up.

 

Frazier hadn't similar frame to Tyson.Tyson has heavier bone structure The prime Frazier was about only 205 pounds who never looked ripped like the prime Tyson who was 216-220 pounds very muscular fighter wtih very low bodyfat percentage.
But the bigger problem Joe looked slow compared to the prime Tyson.

 

Frazier rips Douglas apart.

I've never seen a fighter so overrated on the strength of one fight as this. Personally I always have thought Tokyo said more about the failings of Tyson than the strengths of Douglas.

Sure Douglas had some nice skills but he didn't remotely have the ability, mobility and likely the power of Ali and Frazier gave him hell and clearly beat him when arguably the best versions of each met (that is the best version of each in their 3 fight series not their absolute best which Ali's obviously was pre the 3 year layoff).

If you think Frazier is going to plod forward and do nothing and allow himself to be tied up with ease like Tyson did then you're deluded. Tyson was appallingly ineffectual that night in the area where Joe excelled. Joe would target Buster's flabby mid section for the first 5 rounds interspersed with some big hooks upstairs all the while absorbing Buster's jabs and rights that he will land early and fairly often. Eventually though, as generally happened, Fraziers constant forward momentum and underrated punch accuracy wears Douglas down and he gets battered along the ropes and eventually stopped by the 7th round.

Douglas just doesn't have enough to beat Frazier to put it simply. The Tyson fight happened but so did the White, Ferguson, Tucker and even the Dee Collier fights to offer a stark reality check as to how good he really was. Frazier was another level of fighter completely.

 

I remember clearly what happened.
The left hook came over the low right hand ,do you actually know how boxing works? Ali is on record as saying Frazier was easy to hit with the jab ,are you aware even aware of that?
I never suggested Frazier would not land, I disputed your choice of the words." got round the jab".Bonavena was never a top end puncher and anyone who says different knows jack sh*t.
See how easy it is to be offensive in return ? Now we can continue in this vein or you can be polite in future I really don't care either way because I have to tell you I have a very large vocabulary of insults and I am happy to demonstrate then at your expense.

 

Ali can talk down frazier all he wants, cameras dont lie. Again, had more than a 7 inch reach, 4 inch height, lateral movement and footwork advantage. Ali fought his opponents in a stance where his left side was forward, right side in the rear. Frazier would not have been able to come "over the low right hand" in the first place without being in position and getting past alis left most of the time.

Ali doesnt just let anyone get close enough, especially a guy fraziers height, without trying. The hook is primarily a close/mid ramge weapon at best. But you want to tell me i dont know boxing and these obvious facts escaped you...?

Here, since you apparently havent seen the fight in a long time:

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=8KLJC94fSgw

0:20 frazier slips a few jabs

0:30 parries a jab, later makes ali completely miss 2 or 3 jabs

0:50 dips under a jab bobbing to the left and lands a hook

1:04 another slip...makes ali miss by several inches beauifully.

This was only the first freaking round, when frazier was most vulnerable and i found 4 or 5 instances of frazier completely slipping, parrying, or blocking one of the best jabs in history. You were saying...?

Bonavena was a hard puncher. Obviously not on the level of shavers, or foreman, or tua but he was a pretty good banger. You dont get 40+ kos in the heavyweight division being featherfisted--that just doesnt happen.

Now, balls in your court. Explain logically how if frazier could slip past a near prime muhammad alis jab and get up from foremans brutal uppercuts that douglas is going to have an easy night just poppin the jab cruising to a UD or knock him out? If you cant at least admit douglas is in for a rough night then i cant take you seriously.