Tokyo Douglas vs Rocky Marciano

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lepinthehood, Feb 13, 2015.


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  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    There are a lot of reasons why they dont do it the main reason is the smaller fighter being good enough to set the pace. guarantee he can make that impression, especially with the gloves they fight with now. Another reason is guaranteeing a referee will break them up and allow the smaller guy to work. So a lot of guarantees are required.

    It's easier for a fighter to learn his craft not giving up so much weight so all heavyweights are physically built up compared with yesteryear. Nobody can guarantee anything so they physically build their fighter up like everyone else.

    I guarantee however that you would prefer Joe Louis fighting Buddy Bear with 6oz horse hair stuffed gloves than modern foam packed 10oz gloves and you would prefer Buddy knowing the fight might last 15 rounds. Also you would prefer Joe Louis was as good as he was too.
     
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    #46
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    But in the end, no matter how it's cut, it's now inarguable that boxing has decide that size is better than the advantages you've described, isn't it?

    I mean yourself and Janitor are making a play based upon the idea that Marciano's size is an advantage, or rather that Douglas's size can be an advantage for Douglas.

    But i'd submit that boxing culture itself has refuted this, and while nothing is impossible in sport, the sport of boxing itself is in disagreement with you.

    IF what you are describing is true, there would likely be, or have been, a Marciano out there, wouldn't there? Instead of the occasional failed one like Chambers, who is now packing 220lbs having gone 1-2 just above the 200lb limit?

    But there isn't; and there probably never will be.
     
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    #47
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    The landscape has changed so yes, boxing has decided that and the generations coming through have allowed the division to become the only division where a reach advantage is rarely overcome by men of the same weight. So yes it is unsurprising that in a division where a reach advantages is rarely overcome that not much chance is given to a lighter fighter of a smaller reach. You cant blame them.

    But I've just watched Larry Holmes at 205lb beat 238lb Roy Tiger Williams so it did not used to be the case.

    In the end there is something unnatural about a division where pace has effected the ability to overcome reach. The only division.
     
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    #48
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, a class gap makes a difference. The only guy boxing in a division which is too big for him now is Rigondeaux. p4p skills will always make a huge difference.

    But does Williams outreach Holmes? Holmes has a long reach for his height consistently listed about 80".

    Well it's the division that allows for the largest variations in size. The case in hand demonstrates a reach advantage of close to a foot and a half. You don't get featherweights outreaching each other by a foot.

    Here though, it's not just the unprecedented reach advantage - it's a forty pound weight advantage (the same as the difference between a cruiserweight and a middleweight) and a 4-5" height advantage.

    It's prohibitive.

    Marciano could beat a lot guys that are bigger than him I bet. But this type of size advantage in combination with that kind of performance? Prohibitive.
     
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    #49
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Watching the fight Williams out reached Holmes. It's a good fight. Carl Williams and Roy Williams out jabbed Holmes with longer arms but he beat both. You dont see that now.



    Perhaps not featherweight but welterweight you do. Pace has effected the smaller heavyweights because they cannot set the greater pace required to overcome reach. The obsession with building mass slows them down.



    This is a cartoonish size differential but there's nothing to say Marvin Hagler would definitely be destroyed by a top 40 ATG cruiserweight is there?

    I agree it is a huge advantage in size but not one of championship pace or class. Douglas had to ration that pace. It is a factor. Like you say Marciano hit hard enough to beat bigger men as well. I don't entirely rule out Douglas or rather that performance. It was stunning.
     
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    #50
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Who are you thinking?

    Right, but the advantages the extra weight brings, according to boxing (trainers, fighters etc.) are greater. That's my point. All these boxing people rate the mass higher than the pace. It's not a co-incidence or an accident.
     
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    #51
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    They rate the mass higher than pace today because of the shorter championship distance, the bigger gloves, the skill set has diminished at heavyweight and the pace makes it a much slower division. If the fights were longer and the gloves smaller we would be back to how it was. I don't blame boxing people for rating the mass under these conditions that are unique to the division.
     
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    #52
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't think I can agree with that. "The way it was" so a big man peak in skill of Jess Willard and Primo Carnera. Surely the difference in quality between Willard and Lewis is a bigger factor than 12 round fights and bigger gloves? The changes you list are not insignificant, but the changes in quality of big fighters is astronomical. Willard and Carnera were good. The best big men now are right there with Ali and Louis.
     
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    #53
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Possibly, but it is also possible that more things suit the best big men
    these days. chiefly not coming against fighters who can overcome a disadvantage in reach.

    Would you prefer Joe Louis fought Buddy Baer with bigger gloves in a fight set for a shorter distance? Would bulking up Joe Louis to the extent he could not overcome a reach disadvantage make Buddy look better?
     
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    #54
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well the fifteen rounds is the biggest thing, and that is inarguably of huge benefit to massive fighters and probably what brought on the gains in size, more than any other single factor.

    But these guys are elastic, they have good footwork, they are co-ordinated, and they hit like absolute *******s. The difference is enormous.

    No, but I would say that those differences are less significant than if you replace Buddy Baer with Lennox Lewis. That is representative of a far bigger difference than what you are describing.

    In other words, the big men now are so much better than the big men then that it is by far the more significant factor.
     
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    #55
  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    It isn't even as if Douglas is a great big fighter.

    What is his second best win?

    Do people really think that he went from being a mediocre contender to a world beater overnight, and back again overnight?
     
    janitor, Feb 15, 2015
    janitor, Feb 15, 2015
    #56
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    He was great on that night. Tokyo Douglas has become something a little ridiculous, but the facts are, in that ring, on that night, he was absolutely exceptional.

    Put it this way, knowing what you now know would you rather see Marciano in the ring with Douglas, or Tyson that night, if your life was on the line as to the result? Douglas proved that night that he was better than an ATG heavyweight who was lagging in training.


    SO the question as to how he would do v a small cruiserweight in the peak of condition is a valid one.
     
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    #57
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You think that he was great for one night.

    I cannot definitely say that you are wrong, but you are making a massive assumption here.

    A fighter only having one big win, should always set alarm bells ringing.
     
    janitor, Feb 15, 2015
    janitor, Feb 15, 2015
    #58
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think greatness is a measurement of a fighter's worth, no, I wouldn't put it like that. I think he had athletic and fistic excellence for one night, and I would suggest to you that based on the film, that is inarguable.
     
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    McGrain, Feb 15, 2015
    #59
  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    But they are able to look better too. Image how much further a fighter can progress when nobody is fast enough to get past his reach? Everyone looks great against a sitting duck and that is what the division has become. Shorter reach = sitting duck. That never used to be the case. And isn't in any other weight class.

    Don't forget part if what made the old giants look so lousy was how much they were able to use against faster fighters hitting them with small gloves. Speed deficit restricted them entirely. You might think Vlad appears to have fast hands now because nobody is picking him off.

    Lewis and Bowe were a class above Willard and Carnera but they also fought more people closer to their own size and this enabled them to look less like the giants they were. Notice their pace and the importance of taking rounds off as they grew over 238lb. Notice too their workrate at their lighter recorded weights.
     
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    choklab, Feb 15, 2015
    #60
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