Yeah, I agree JT. He would have been beaten by both, im not disputing it. But skillwise I think he's right up there. De La Hoya never closed the show against Trinidad, but thats a mental aspect more than anything. De La Hoya never had the same killer instinct as Leonard, and never had the power of Hearns to turn close fights into wins. I don't think Leonard or Hearns could have done a better job against Chavez if they were a similar size to De La Hoya with comparble power. I do concede thats going off the rails a bit, and its fantasy thinking.
One area I take De La Hoya over Hearns and Leonard. Combination punching. And no doubt about it either. Im not talking about power punches from both hands rushing towards an opponent like Hearns' finish against Duran. And Leonard's shoe shiners against Hagler. Im talking pin point accurate hard combinations put together in three's, fours, and fives, with variation. De La Hoya had much much variation in his combos than Leonard and Hearns.
Anyone thats picking Delahoya go and watch Ike Quartey win 9 rounds against Oscar by simply throwing a left jab time and again. Delahoya could not beat a good jab (Quartey & Sturm) Delahoya also had nightmares with speed - Mosley, Mayweather, Whitaker, Quartey. Delahoya also had problems with taller fighters and put his track shoes on with a bigger hitter (Trinidad) So lets summarise - HEarns had the better jab, reach, size, power, speed, footwork, stamina, defence, timing, boxing skill and may have had a better chin. Delahoya had problems with jabbers and speed.
De la hoya cannot outbox hearns at 147. Hearns' chin at under 160 is underrated as only sugar ray dented it and ray punched very hard and fast at 147. Hearns also took big shots against hagler and roldan without being knocked down so its a myth that hearns was chinny,he just didnt have the chin of an ali or somesuch. Hearns stamina was reasonable v ray and he also went 13 with shields at welter. Also rays stamina over 15 was fantastic,de la hoyas over 12 is suspect...Hearns never ran out of gas before the 12th. Finally,oscar has never faced a hitter like tommy who on top of being elusive,quick and very tall,has a rapier like jab to outbox any welter in history. Trinidad was one dimensional and slow compared to hearns,and trini couldnt really outbox de la hoya either... Really i think all the guys praising de la hoya or making this matchup close are just underestimating hearns at 147 and overrating de la hoya at 147...Can you imagine the first 3 rounds when tommy comes out jabbing and bombing? This fight could end very early,tommy at welter punches harder than hopkins did to de la hoya and we all saw the result of that....If hoya somehow survives the early rounds he will be outboxed thereafter but will have a some good moments due to his competitive nature and skills... ps; robbie,i saw both chavez de la hoya matches and yes de la hoya did great in both but i think tommy and leonard would both easily beat chavez due to their styles,even if you mythically shrink both down to 140. I think you vastly underate the difference in class between de la hoya and hearns/leonard....
Your a top man JT. Your a man I can have a good debate with without things going off rails. Meaning nothing ever gets personal. If you onto the general forum you will see people using bad language towards each other over differences of opinion. You always give ground and admit your wrong, at times when you see fit. But more often than not your right. I'll give ground, maybe me saying "you would need to be a Hearns nuthugger or a De La Hoya hater" when it comes to comparing their chins was a bit strong. However, I still think De La Hoya clearly had a better chin as previously mentioned.
I was a man in a hurry earlier as well, I thought I had replied to yourself in an previous post, but it was actually sweet_scientist. atsch
The initial threadstarter question was: Who wins at 147 lbs and why? Both at their best of course... So I've been arguing that Hearns' chin was better (or at least better tested) at 147.
I awnsered the question who wins at 147lbs. Regarding Hearns' chin being better tested at 147lbs, thats up for argument. I watched the HBO legendary nights, Leonard v Hearns the other night, and a Detroit journalist said after Hearns was seriously hurt by Leonard's assualt during the 6th round "He had never been hit with those type of punches up until then his career, nobody knew how good his chin was". De La Hoya fought a good battle with Quartey and was floored during the 6th round, before coming back to almost finish Quartey during the 12th, and ended up pulling out a decision. His chin was fine whenever Trinidad caught him flush, which wasn't often. And his chin was tested regularly against Mosley over 12 rounds. All those fights were at welterweight against guys who had very decent power.
Firstly Delahoya was schooled by Quartey losing at least 9 rounds. Secondly it wasn't a war, Delahoya just ate jabs all night. And thirdly I gave De la hoya the Whitaker fight so I'm not a 'hater'
At least 9 rounds. Your opinion beggars belief. I had De La Hoya 3-2 up after 5, maybe 3-2 Quartey as the rounds were close. Quartey edged the 6th, took 7, 8, and 9. De La Hoya 10, 11, 12. Close fight. No problems with you having Quartey winning, but at LEAST 9 rounds in the bag is ludicrious. Quartey fell short with many jabs, especially during the early rounds. Only when he had De La Hoya hurt after the 6th round did he start to connect with jabs on a regular basis. It was a tactical battle, but De La Hoya did take some flush shots. Watch the right hand he takes from Quartey during the 9th, straight right hand down the pipe, a monster and De La Hoya comes right back. Leonard v Hearns was hardly an all out war either.
