I've recently rewatched the Toney-Nunn fight. Somehow the general perception of this fight is that Toney got dominated by Nunn for 10 rounds and then landed a lucky punch on Nunn that led to the stoppage. That is nonsense of course. It's true that Nunn outboxed Toney for the first half of the fight. But Toney came on in round 7, turned the fight around in round 8, and won round 9 big. Nunn made a stand in round 10, but Toney finished him in the 11th. Nunn started to slow down from round 7 on, he was dead tired in round 11 and a KO waiting to happen. Some claim that Nunn gassed in this fight because he took the still green Toney lightly and didn't prepare for the fight like he should have. Nunn has always been known for partying in-between fights, which was seen as the reason for some of his so-so performances. However, after rewatching the fight, it became clear to me that it was Toneys discrete but effective body punching during the whole fight that slowed down Nunn. Toney consistently went to the body, and he took some big shots upstairs in order to put in that body work. One could say that he was setting up the KO, and his game plan succeeded. For example, in round 7 Toney hit Nunn with a big right hand to the stomach that had Nunn bend forward and had him whincing in pain. If Nunn was or wasn't in peak shape on that evening can not be known, but with Toneys sustained attack to the body it seems clear to me that Nunn, regardless of his conditioning, would have crumbled at some point during the fight. Nunn was a tough, durable guy, that has only been stopped once in his long great career, but he's always been vulnerable to the body. Toney kept coming the whole fight, he chased Nunn, he stepped up the pressure when Nunn began to slow down, he simply turned the tables on Nunn. Like Bill Miller said to James 'you gotta dog this man!' - and James did. Your thoughts?
This is one of those examples where the fight looks different if the sound is turned off. Toney's defense is brilliant, but subtle. The commentators don't really know what to make of it so they focus on Nunn until it becomes apparent that things are in Toney's favor. It's hard to remember that Toney because he's a fat sack of **** right now, but he was doing much better than the commentary suggested.
Hmm, I also watched this fight recently and thought Nunn looked great, which was difficult for me to swallow as a Toney loyalist. I'm not sure if it was the bodywork that you cited as being the reason but it is certainly true that Toney was coming on like nobody's business in the second half of the fight and Nunn was doing a fat load of nothing while Toney broke him down. What might be used against your hypothesis is the notion that if Toney did work all of this out with bodypunching and it was only a matter of time, Bill Miller certainly was not privy to this strategy, since he was becoming increasingly flustered with Toney not "dogging" Nunn. It seemed to me like he thought Nunn was winning and knew Toney needed to **** him up, not that Toney was working away at his bodypunching strategy and that the KO would come in time. Or maybe Miller just knew that to chastise James was the best way to get a rise out of him. Maybe I need to watch it again to pick up on the body punching, which I was not particularly looking out for. But either way I think that to call it a Nunn domination followed by a lucky Toney KO is fallacious. After Round 8 it was clear what was coming and if Toney had have lost the fight it would have been an argument for the return to championship length 15 round bouts. Question, Frost: I am assuming Toney didn't formally split from Miller, since they worked together for his UFC debut... but what happened to make Tones shack up with Freddie Roach for a while? Where was Miller during this time?
Not only the body punching. Also Toney's constant pressure and defense skills by making Nunn miss a lot contributed to Nunn's fatigue. So, I agree that Toney's win was not a luck punch KO.
Nunn leaning back on the ropes was his undoing. Barkley did well landing bodyshots to Nunn when Nunn leaned back on the ropes, but he did not have the follow up punches that Toney had, and also the Nunn which Barkley fought in 1989 was better at 160 than the one who Toney fought in 1991.
I disagree with that. Nunn was very motivated for the Toney fight and did not take him lightly. He fought an unbeaten challenger (with about a record of 27-0) in his hometown Ioha.
Of course it was the combination of Toneys body punching, pressure, and good defense that did tire out Nunn. You observed that very well, along with Trixie and vonBanditos. Interestingly, Nunn himself tried going to the body in order to tame the hot-tempered challenger. But the fire in young James Toney was simply too hot that evening to be quenched.
Nunn leaned back on the ropes because he got tired. Why exactly was the Nunn that fought Barkley much better than the version of Nunn that fought Toney? Nunn was considered to be either P4P #2 or #3 at the time he faced Toney. There was very bad blood between Toney and Nunn before the fight, and Nunn claimed that he would make short work of Toney before his hometown crowd of Davenport Iowa. During the first half of the fight it looked like Nunn sure meant business, and he looked as good as he ever did.
Well, Nunn did look great. Even if Toney showed good defense, I think Nunn won rounds 1-6, and probably also round 7. Rounds 1 and 10 were close, I gave round 1 to Nunn and round 10 to Toney, but it could've been the other way round. Bill Miller constantly had to urge Toney to put the pedal to the metal, in all of his fights. So did Freddie Roach. Even if young Toney was hot temprered, he had a bad habit of taking breaks, even in the Nunn fight. Miller wanted to prevent that. As for your question: I did not know that Bill Miller worked with Toney again for his UFC debut. Simply because I wasn't interested at all in Toneys UFC (mis-) adventure.. Bill Miller constantly complained that Toney was uncontrollable and undisciplined, even when things went great. Toney simply was too hot-tempered. This is also the reason that led to their split sometime after the first Griffin fight I think... Toney was trained by Eddie Mustapha Muhammad then for a while. After that, Freddie Roach was Toneys trainer for many years, including the 'dark years' and his comeback. After the Batchelder fight, Roach refused to train Toney anymore and suggested that he should retire. Toney was then trained by Sahdeed Suluki (Rahman II and Greer fights), and by Joe Goossen (Oquendo fight). All of Toneys trainers complained that James didn't aknowledge their authority, that he was a great guy but that he was difficult to work with when he wasn't motivated.
Miller is 91, he ain't working with nobody anymore. Arthur seems out of his mind since he recently stated that he wants Toney to have another UFC fight early next year. Given that Toney has already a little brain damage, it was certainly not appropriate to put him the cage to begin with.
Thanks for the response, mate. I just saw that short documentary for the first time, which you commented to have also never seen before, wherein Miller says that he trained Ray Robinson. I had no idea...
Toney sacked Miller shortly after the Griffin I fight. Miller had openly complained ato the press about Toney's laziness and lack of motivation after the Griffin fight, which is the reason Toney sacked him. He would refuse to renew his contract with McKallen, due to the Jones fallout. Which is what started the "dark years". You cant sack the team that got you to the top and not have any negative results Toney and Mustapha never got on very well, which is why they split and Toney eventually hooked up with Roach. Roach told Toney to retire after the second Peter fight, because Roach noticed he was getting hit to often. Toney told him to F*ck off
No, he really didn't.Nunn was blatantly not in the best shape, and had been taking rounds off ever since the Barkley fight.It's more or less well known now he was a cokefiend who was training less and less by the time of this fight. revisionism is going to turn this into some Chavez-esque masterpiece overtime to balance out the belief Nunn was miles ahead...neither of which were true.
He was also refusing to listen to Dundee, who wanted him to box and move, not to trade in the middle of the ring
