Tony Tucker vs Rocky Marciano

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by KeedCubano, Jan 6, 2020.


  1. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    But their career arcs were completely different. Marciano only graduated from being a club circuit fighter in 1951 and was done in 1955. His best opponents during that run at what was considered elite at that time were mostly old and rose from the lower weights.

    Ali was fighting Jones and Cooper in 63, Liston in 64, and outside of his 3 year banishment from the sport, kept fighting top notch guys until 1981. His window was vastly larger and his opponents much more diverse in style and abilities.

    It's as though one guy was playing Capture the Flag and promptly retired while the other set forth a dynasty. You can not honestly extrapolate the former to scale with the latter.
     
  2. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Who fought longer and took on the better opposition is true but also beside the point. Ali was struggling with lesser opponents as a prospect, a contender, a champion AND a washed up shell of himself.. weather he had 17 pro fights or 60, he had plenty of lackluster performances against guys he wasn't supposed to.. No amount of dancing around the issue or repackaging of the facts is going to change that.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I don't believe Ali would have quit,but I do believe if Frazier had come out for more he would have been stopped.
    I never suggested Marciano gets sparked ,with or without ease.I believe Ali's physical advantages and clear edge in skills and speed coupled with a great chin ,would result in a tko in about 6rds.
    Prime Ali struggled with great fighters when a bit past his best,prime Marciano had his hands full with older men past theirs.
    I'll tell you a secret Marciano's 49-0 doesn't mean much to me at all,half of them were dross. I'd expect quite a few champs to keep a clean sheet against them.,and in some cases improve markedly on his performance.
     
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  4. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Plenty of lack lustre performances? Can you give us some examples?
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ali never struggled with opponents the calibre of
    Applegate
    Henri
    Lowry
    Buonvino
     
  6. BlackCloud

    BlackCloud I detest the daily heavyweight threads Full Member

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    Those few words sum it up perfectly.

    When you factor in how much more Ali had to offer over shopworn Walcott & Charles It really is a no brainer.
     
  7. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    None of those guys were in Marciano's prime.

    Ali seems to have been far closer to his best when he lost to Frazier and Norton.

    He would go on to score some of his best wins afterwards whereas Marciano's struggles/bad performances are before he beat anyone highly ranked.
     
  8. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Active Member Full Member

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    Also, the argument about Ali struggling with great fighters seems to involve circular logic.

    Who did Norton beat that makes him great aside from Ali? Take out the win over Ali and his resume doesn't seem that exceptional.
     
  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I thought Ali looked a bit crap against Rudi Lubbers, to be honest.
    I'm just saying.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Applegate was Marciano's 33rd fight.
    Henri his 32nd.
    Lowry his 29th.
    Buonvino his27th.


    In contrast Jones was Ali's 17th fight and he was just 20 years old
    Cooper his 18th fight when he was 21 years old.
    When Ali lost to Frazier he had 18rounds of boxing after a 3 and a half year absence from the ring .
    Would you like to speculate how that would have affected Rocky? How about we take him out of the game for 3 and a half years , give him 18rds of combat and then throw him in with a prime Frazier? How does he do?
    We never saw Ali's prime it would have been during those 3 and a half years he was denied the right to earn his living.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes he carried him for the TV.Lets not forget that 4 weeks earlier he had gone the distance with Norton and had already had 3 fights that year 2 with Norton and one with Bugner. You cant get up for everyone.
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You don't think Marciano struggled with Charles in their first fight?
    You don't think he struggled when he was in danger of being stopped with a nose split in half in their second fight?
    You don't think he struggled with Walcott in their first fight when he was behind on the scorecards at the time of the stoppage?
    You don't think he was giving a bad performance against Lastarza in their second fight when he was behind on the cards at the half way stage?
     
  13. Pat M

    Pat M Active Member Full Member

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    IMO, Ali vs Doug Jones is one of the best fights ever between two highly skilled fighters. Ali, IMO, was close to as good as he ever was technically in this fight, he probably got a little stronger when he was older. Jones was a master fighter, just doesn't have the size, speed, and strength of Ali. I don't know who trained Jones, but the guy should be mentioned on any list of great trainers. Nice fight between two excellent fighters, one a Gold Medal winner, the other a NYC fighter who was good at all ranges. If Doug Jones had the physical talent of Ali...

     
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  14. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    1. It was later revealed that Ali told his corner to cut the tape off of his gloves and that he was done. Across the ring a swollen and blind Joe Frazier told Futch NOT to stop the fight.. Meanwhile at ringside, a friend of Frazier's who was sitting on Ali's side of the arena heard and saw what was going on in ali's corner. He tried to signal to Futch not to stop the fight but no one saw him and it was called off... Had Futch waited another 10 seconds, Joe would have been declared the winner.

    2. Agreed.. Ali's superior size, speed and other athletic gifts would see him to victory.. I don't dispute that and never have.. Do I think Ali stops him in six rounds and in one sided fashion the way that you do? Not really. I think Marciano's persistent attacks, ability to slip the jab, stamina, conditioning, power, ability to fight with two hands and heart would extend him into the later rounds and even see him landing some going punches at times. This is no knock on Ali. Eventually Rocky gets stopped or widely outpointed but I disagree that's walk in the park.

    3. No.... Ali struggled with ALL kinds of fighters and at ALL stages of his career.. Not just great ones and not just when he was past it either.. I've covered this ad nauseam.

    4. Rocky received good fights from men who were still great fighters despite their age or origins in other weight classes... I'll give you that Joe Louis was shot and Rocky shouldn't get many points for that win. Charles, Walcott, Moore and Lastarza were still very live opponents.

    5. There are definitely some that I would pick to replicate or surpass Rocky's 49-0 record given the same set of circumstances and there are others I would not bet on doing it, BECAUSE of the same circumstances... Some of the later muscle bound freaks might not BE so muscle bound in the 50's. They'd also have to thoroughly finish their opponents as referees didn't stop fights as early. Oh and there's this thing about going 15 rounds..
     
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  15. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And those guys had nothing in common with Ali either nor very many of his opponents.. Can we point out Ali very nearly getting knocked into 1964 by Henry Cooper, or Ken Norton arguably beating him two out of 3, or Jimmy Young getting robbed against him or how lack luster he looked against Chuck Wepner? Granted I wasn't born yesterday and I know that these were not Ali's best opponents NOR his best performances. On the night Muhammad beat George Foreman he might well have beaten anybody.. But anyone can nitpick and choose as they say fit to make a point. Rather than continuing to do that, I think I'll stick with my response in my last post about Marciano having the tools to hang in their with him and make somewhat of a fight out of it..
     


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