Tony Zale vs the MW of the last 30 yrs

Suzie is a Policeman.

 

Suzie's ok ,we disagree on just about everything .:hey

 

"Burt- Don't get me wrong. While Tony Zale shouldn't have been compelled to defend his world middleweight title in a bout with any fighter from the famed Murderers' Row because of gate attraction considerations, that doesn't mean he should have been permitted to avoid the likes of Jake LaMotta and Sugar Ray Robinson, both of whom were fine gate attractions in their own right although not on the same level as Rocky Graziano in that category. But both both LaMotta and Robinson faced far better competition than Graziano did while compiling fine records. While avoiding the likes of LaMotta and Robinson, Zale faced far less worthy fighters such as Graziano and Marcel Cerdan in four consecutive world middleweight title bouts. I would allow Zale to fight Graziano in a title bout one time with the winner of the bout being compelled to have a title bout with LaMotta or Robinson. Zale or Graziano would have made plenty of money fighting LaMotta or Robinson in a title bout. - Chuck Johnston "

Chuck, what source can you provide to back up Zale avoiding Robinson. I don't believe Robinson ever really wanted to fight him. Whether anyone on here wants to believe it's the truth or not, Robinson later told Tony that a fight between the two was proposed to him at one point for a lot of money but he didn't want it.

I think LaMotta is another story, and he was certainly deserving of a shot at Zale. Abrams wanted another short at Zale in early 1943, but the U.S. Navy turned thumbs down on any leaves for that purpose so there was no opportunity to fight LaMotta until after he left the service. Then, despite LaMotta's obvious qualifications, Graziano became the more popular attraction at the time and the fighter that more folks were interested in seeing Tony fight for the title. After Rocky knocked out Marty Servo in the Garden, promoter James Johnston envisioned him as the coming middleweight champion and predicted he'd knock out Tony.

By March 31, 1946, it was being reported that Tony had already been signed to defend his title against any one of five challengers, with Rocky's name heading the list. Four days later, Mike Jacobs confirmed Rocky would get the opportunity. Ultimately, I believe that the powers to be felt a fight between Rocky and Tony would generate the largest gate at the time and that led to him receiving the shot over LaMotta. Of course, there could have been additional factors in play.

As you say, in all fairness, LaMotta should have received the next opportunity against the winner, but of course boxing's never been fair in that regard. It's always been about the money. Zale-Graziano I was The Ring magazine fight of the year and a rematch between the pair proved inevitable.

After Tony reclaimed the title in his third fight with Graziano, Andy Niederreiter and the Tournament of Champions led the search for his next opponent and ultimately selected Marcel Cerdan in July of 1948. LaMotta had been suspended for seven months after his November 1947 fiasco against Billy Fox so I suspect that played a part in his not being in the mix at the time.

 

Clay, I don't know if Sugar Ray Robinson really pushed for a world middleweight title bout with Tony Zale or if Zale went out of his way to avoid him. But I would think that Robinson deserved a shot at Zale much more than Graziano or Marcel Cerdan, especially since he did very well in his series of bouts with Jake LaMotta. If Robinson fought LaMotta in a series of bout, I can't see how he would turn down a chance to fight Zale for the title.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Yeah but you said Apostoli didnt either and its a big but.

But did Apostoli really duck them, is it a big but in his career, I dont get why you added him there :?

 

I hear you Chuck. I don't know when Robinson was offered the fight. But, maybe it's precisely that series of bouts with LaMotta that turned him off on the idea of facing Zale. Tony said that the rest of what Robinson said to him about turning down the opportunity was that he hit too hard to the body. Did Robinson really mean it? Who knows. I'm certainly not going to say that Zale could have defeated him. Was Robinson interested in fighting Zale at the time the first fight with Graziano was made? Robinson was still a welterweight at the time, right?

 

Chuck, thanks for your input, but let's get real. Let us not FORGET WW2 and how that horrendous war turned everything
topsy turvy...Tony Zale at his prime was drafted into the Navy
in 1941. Zale served 4 long prime years in the Navy, being discharged at the age of 32. Without a bout for 4 years, and
knowing full well he would never again be the fighter he was 4 years ago, common sense would dictate to him he should make some money for his family after living on a sailor's monthly pay for 4 years . So Tony Zale had a few tune=up fights and there appeared on the horizon a sensational MW Ko artist named Rocky Graziano...I should know about Rocky because I had seen Graziano with his slam bang style since his 4 round prelim days.
So I recall there was a demand by the boxing fans for a match with Tony Zale and the rockem sockem kid Rocky Graziano who just gave a horrible beating to Marty Servo, ruining Servo's health in the process and forced Servo into retirement...I recall this is what the public demanded, a match between Zale and Graziano, NOT a Charley Burley, an Eddie Booker,a Holman Williams etc. And so Zale knowing that his career as a top fighter was ebbing out accepted this great money match against the number #1 drawing card in the world at that time...Who can now
honestly put themselves in Zale's shoes, and not have done the same ???. A great money match would feed Tony Zale's family
in 1946. WW2 screwed everything up including Zale's career, and who's to say who he would have fought if WW2 never occurred ? One other thing Chuck ,I saw Marcel Cerdan beat Georgie Abrams at MSG. I saw him flatten my neighbor Harold Gree in 2 rounds and Cerdan contrary to some posters was a helluva MW who beat Holman Williams and tough Georgie Abrams, who drew with Charley Burley and gave Ray Robinson
hell losing a controversial decision...So Tony Zale fighting Marcel Cerdan was no walk in the park...

 

Zale is not among the greats at 160 in my opinion

 

Burt, Tony Zale was drafted into the U.S. Navy? The U.S. Army was the only branch of the U.S. Armed Forces which had draftees serving at the time.

Both Rocky Graziano and Marcel Cerdan were capable fighters with good win-loss records, but their level of opposition was very soft before fighting Zale. Yes, they were formidable opponents for an over-the-hill Zale. But at the same time, Jake LaMotta and Sugar Ray Robinson were facing were facing very formidable opposition on a regular basis.

- Chuck Johnston

 

I am not so sure of that, I see many MWs dodging him from the last 30 years, this man was harder than any MW I have seen in this period, he had a left hook from hell, could box, intimidate, could brawl, had a steel chin, wasn't slow in the least, had good footwork, nah Tony was scary. How do you know he dodged anyone ??? SRR was still at WW. You need to provide examples and some proof for these claims