Tony Zale vs the MW of the last 30 yrs

Chuck, When I was drafted by Selective Service, I ended up in the U.S.Navy...

 

Tony Zale never dodged Ray Robinson. If anything the WW SRR
never challenged the bigger and stronger Tony Zale who was a full fledged middleweight.. To all revisionists who today love to denigrate Tony Zale for whatever their "noble" agenda's , remember about the same time in 1946 , Ray Robinson fought a good fighting MW Artie Levine, who lived near us, and in that fight Artie Levine dropped Robinson on his back
badly hurt. The referee for some reason still unknown , walked Artie Levine to a neutral corner, and then strolled back to where the floored Robinson lay, and than started the ONE count over SRR. about 17 seconds elapsed with Robinson getting time to
recover and get off the canvas...SEVENTEEN SECONDS.
And believe me Artie Levine could not come close to Tony Zale as a middleweight...I am pretty sure SRR having this experience with an Artie Levine, wanted no part of the much greater MW Tony Zale, thus Robinson never really wanted any part of Zale...
And Rocky Graziano at that time was rated so much higher than Artie Levine...Rocky Graziano was no Willie Pep but Rocky was a savage puncher, strong and game...So lay off blasting Tony Zale
a patriot and one of the greatest body punchers who ever lived.
Tony feared no one his weight, but WW2 changed everything for him and for millions of others including myself .

 

You are so right, I know this wasn't directed at me, I love Zale, I am sad there is so little footage of him, why in hell isn't there proper film of the 1st Graziano fight and why is the only film of fight two is a grainy, amateurish film shot from way out the back of the stadium where all we get is a very jumpy scene and it loops back and forth and only seems to show about 2 rounds at most ? (don't get me wrong I am grateful to the guy who actually bothered to bring a camera but for christs sake what was TV doing ?)

As for SRR you nailed it right on the head, I even recall ray stating that he didn't want to take Zale on as he was deadly and better to wait a few years and fight someone he has a better chance with. I cannot recall where I saw this but ray was very candid about it. We also get LaMotta fans (I am one of them.... but) insisting Jake was easily superior to Tony well I say BS to that, I see Zale picking Jake to pieces, Jake was better than Graziano for sure but Rocky had one thing in his ****nal that gave him a chance against Zale.... a knock guys dead cold one punch knockout and that is why Jake would fail against Tony, Tony would soon realise that Jake can't really hurt him so he just walks straight through jakes flurries and brings his own serious power punching to the fore, he didn't as hard as Graziano but he sure wasn't that far away from Rocky's power....... does Zale stop Jake ?... yes I think by referee stepping in and saving Jake from a near death experience.... I may be wrong but this is how I see it.

How about Zale vs Floyd ? Oh man wouldn't I enjoy seeing Floyd being taken apart like Guy Fawkes on James I's dungeon racks.

 

Furthermore Burt, I rate Zale as the best middleweight of the 1940's.... he unifies the title and than holds it for almost the entire decade, Charley Burley wasn't even in the picture then.... that is the work of much later revisionists. Burley was very skillful but nobody seemed to think him worthy of a shot against Zale, I rate LaMotta number two of the 40's.

 

I remember reading Graziano's autobiography 'Someone Up There Likes Me' many years back and in it his vivid description of the three savage fights he had with Zale.
It goes without saying that he had a very high opinion of Tony.

 

Greg of course I wasn't directing my ire at you...Most posters on ESB are fair I believe. But there are certain posters that have a social agenda, thinking that fighters of yesteryear are responsible
for social ills that they didn't cause, and they are beaten down and reviled like a Dempsey especially, and now it is Tony Zale
who is the target of smears that is not true. They have no shame in tearing apart the reputation of brave fighters who have the cujones to get into the ring and entertain us and risking their lives in the process. But of course these posters that they protect
and do worse things. I regard Tony Zale as the product of the late 1930s when he was in his prime...What a crew of great middleweights there were then. with a Steele, Zale, Ken Overlin.
Apostoli, MW Billy Conn, Al Hostak, Burley, Jock McAvoy, Georgie Abrams, Billy Soose, Teddy Yarosz, Solly Kreiger, Ceferino Garcia, Marcel Thil, Lou Brouillard , Fred Heneberry etc...Who was the greatest ? ???

 

Jealous? Why can't you just accept zale had a weak resume, and did not fight the best of his era, and was lucky to be champion

 

zale would get eaten alive by lamotta. Lamotta would walk right through zale and batter him. Lamotta fought fighters zale wouldn't dream of fighting. Lamotta wasn't afraid to take on the black murderers row!

 

The following men would have beaten zale at 160 in 1940s

Sugar ray Robinson
Jake Lamotta
Lloyd Marshall
Charley Burley
Holman Williams
Eddie Booker
Marcel Cerdan
Archie Moore
Ezzard Charles

Zale 10th best of the 40s

 

Oh really Suze, for a start laMotta didn't fight Burley.......... but that is lucky for Burley and Burley lovers but still Burley was one of those and Jake didn't didn't fight. What irks me about your posts on this thread is your total disdain for Zale, for a start that third fight against Graziano film shows Zale is not some patsy but instead shows us an AWESOME fighter, he is outstanding and he is PAST his prime here. Now don't go putting S*** on Tony about who he fought when champion as if you are insinuating he is dodging anybody cos if you believe that then you are missing the vital fact of boxing in those days........ the gangsters, Tony Zale and SRR and Joe Louis and Gus lesnevich etc didn't EVER get given a choice who they defended their titles against... the MOB chose the challengers. get the picture Suze ?

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Tony Zale began as a pro young, 19 or 20 years of age, before that he had an amateur career, he represented Chicago at the Intercity Golden Gloves at light heavyweight in 1934. He lost to Melio Bettina, the future World Light Heavyweight Champion.. then as a pro He suffered defeats and had victories during the thirties and only slowly climbed the ladder. he lost 15 fights in that period but he won more than double that many... the first big step up for him and his first big name opponent was Al Hostak on the 29th of Jan 1940 and wins in a unanimous decision, four fights later he Hostak gets a rematch with Zale and it's Tony's big chance because this fight is for the NBA World Middleweight title and he wins by TKO stopping Hostak in the 13th. His next two fights are also against nobodies LOL NOT, he fights Billy Soose first in a non title fight but loses by decision in a 10 rounder then not to be discouraged he beats Fred Apostoli on points and scoring three knockdowns in the process, not a bad effort for a bum eh Suze ?

He then beats Tony Martin and then two fight with a Steven Manakos, the second in defense of his title where he knocks Manakos out. Meanwhile still smarting over his two losses to Zale, Al Hostak thinks he can reverse the results and gets a shot at Tony's title. He was wrong, this time Tony, obviously growing into his title belt destroys Hostak in just two rounds, KO. he then continues his Ko/Tko streak knocking out Ossie Harris in one round and Billy Prior in the 9th, since losing to Soose, Zale has stopped 5 opponents in 5 fights, the last 4 fights full KO's. He now gets a shot at the other version of the world title by getting to fight against Georgie Abrams for his NYSAC world middleweight title belt who was the holder courtesy of three wins over the very same Billy Soose who beat Zale earlier. In this fight Zale did get knocked down in the 9th but due to savage beatings on the body of Abrhams gets a unanimous decision with some experts saying Zale won decisively and I quote : "According to Jack Kincaid, all the newspaper reporters whose opinions he read thought that Zale won decisively". This win makes Tony the undisputed middleweight champion, the first to have that honour in a very long time since Tiger Flowers I think.

Tony Zale now for some reason then takes on the great Billy Conn giving away ELEVEN pounds and not surprisingly against a much bigger man and undoubtedly a much faster and slicker Light Heavyweight Tony suffers defeat but he never went down, he loses on points, obviously his title is not on the line. Now, between the Conn fight on the 13th of February 1942 and the 7th of January 1946, Tony decided to have a break from boxing so he can dodge all these great fighters you said he was afraid of to go on a little HOLIDAY that some people call THE SECOND WORLD WAR, serving in the navy, yeah much safer than fighting some guys inside a ring... torpedoes and kamikaze pilots are far safer.

He then comes back to gis profession and now he truly goes nuts going on a great streak of victories, every one of them winning bu KO, lets outline them shall we. Bobby Giles, KO 4, ... Tony Gilo, KO in 5, ,, Oscar Boyd KO 3, ****y Claus KO 4, Ira Hughes KO 2,........... Eddie Rossi KO 4, Some featherfisted weakling called Rocky Graziano, KO 6, it was his first defence of the title since the war, Deacon Logan, TKO 6, Len Wadsworth KO 3, Tommy Charles KO 4, Al Timmins TKO 5, Cliff Beckett TKO 4. LOL what a ordinary fighter this Zale was, only 12 stoppages in a row, lol, not one guy makes it past the sixth.

Now we are coming to the last couple of years, but before I go on and you can say "Oh who were all those guys he fought until Graziano ?", I will say this, HE HAD A FOUR YEAR LAYOFF, so obviously not a wise thing to go straight in and fight the new kids on the block or the established top guys he obviously needed to get his bearings back, I would call this GOOD fighter management. Now we come to the next classic against Graziano, the first fight was one of the all time greatest fights, in this fight Tony took a savage beating, so bad that any other fighter would have gone asleep with stars in their eyes but not the Man Of Steel, no, in the 6th he rallies and scores an amazing KO victory and with this one KO he becomes a legend of the ring. But Suze, to show he wasn't any coward or a dodger he signs to fight Graziano a second time and it is nothing short of a war akin to the first fight but in reverse, this time Zale dominates Rocky and how Graziano ever got up from his knockdown quick enough so the ref doesn't even get to start the count is beyond those who were there because Zale hit him with a massive blow. after that 3rd round knockdown zale pounds Rocky from pillar to post but in the process Rocky gives back some heavy blows of his own and somehow, miraculously he claws his way back into contention and in the 6th he recovers from more heavy dynamite blows from Zale to score maybe the greatest comeback KO in the history of the sport and maybe the greatest gloved fight in history, certainly there have been few like these first two fights since the incredible Wolgast/Nelson 40 rounder almost 40 years before.

Zale is not done with Graziano yet but obviously he should take a couple of easier fights now that he is no longer the champ. He begins his comeback 6 months later against Al Turner and drops him twice in the 4th and in the 5th Zale knocks Al out of the ring and Al cannot make it back to the ring before the ten count, KO 5, Then he fights Bobby Claus again, this time Bobby does slightly better going out by TKO in the 4th as opposed to a KO 4 from their first encounter. Then Zale KO's Lou Woods in 3, Tony now feels he is ready to fight and take his title back off Graziano but this fight is going to age Tony just like the first two fights did. It wasn't a healthy occupation to fight Graziano three times, Rocky had one of the heaviest right hands ever, he hit like a heavyweight, say what you like about his lack of pure boxing and his total disregard for defending himself, to Rocky, defence was for puzzies. I don't need to describe this fight because anyone can see it on youtube. It was another all time classic fight but apparently not quite as big as the other two. i will describe it a wee bit, This time Rocky was totally outclassed and Tony had planned what he was going to do in great detail determined not to simply go toe to toe with Rocky, that is an impossibilty, no middleweight ever can do that with Rocky for long and stay awake. So Zale planned to use his boxing skills but not to stay around for long, he goes hard shooting power punches and pinpoint jabs moving laterally to confuse Rocky. He staggers Rocky with a savage combination, how Rocky stays on his feet I'll never know, he staggers around the ring like Young Griffo did on one of his drinking binges and he ends up on the ropes and Tony moves in for the kill and gives Rocky another combo rocking him badly but somehow Rocky throws the haymaker that stuns Tony and suddenly rocky awakes from his paralytic state and goes on the attack, for the first time in the fight, late in the 2nd Zale is in serious trouble as Rocky goes off like a maniac throwing punches fro all over the place but he is too wild, Tony manages to avoid enough of these to make it to the end of the round, if he hadn't avoided the ones he did he was going out cold for sure, both fighters walk unsteadily to their corners. Now in the 3rd Zale comes out with death in his eyes and BAD INTENTIONS, he gives Rocky no quarter and the end comes with the best right to the floating ribs and left hook to the jaw combo I ever did see on film, the right rip to the body bends Rocky sideways like a banana which sends Rocky's head to the right just in time for the left hook to slam into his jaw, the timing is exquisite and perfect, what a hook, Rocky is unconscious instantly, before he hits the canvas, he doesn't begin to rise until the ten count is given, indeed if the ref kept counting he probably reaches 20 before Rocky rises not realizing the fight is long over and he wants to continue but the ref saves him and consoles poor Rocky. I have recounted the fight purely from memory and I haven't seen the fight in about three years at least so how did I go ? watch the fight and tell me.

END OF PART ONE OF THIS REBUTTAL...... PART TWO COMING UP DIRECTLY

 

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Zale is champion once more but something has left him,and he does not seem aware of it. He puts it all on the line again this time against a brilliant boxer/puncher who can brawl too, his punches are fast as lightning and he hits hard. His name of course is Marcel Cerdan and for a while Tony gives as good as he gets but the punishment he is taking is too reminiscent of his 3 wars against Rocky, oh noooo he is in his fourth war in a row and this time his opponent is five times faster than Rocky and he has great footwork, he gets tagged sometime but makes Tony miss too may times, I believe this is what makes Tony look like he is suddenly a very old man (but it was Rocky who aged him, Marcel just makes it certain), he looks tired and hurt but diligently he refuses to admit this to himself and he is only a quarter through the fight, he will survive many more rounds but that;s all it is, survivng, taking a hellish and awful hiding and Cerdan will not show the champ any mercy, he has waited all his life for this opportunity to be the champeen of the world and he wants this title so bad that he will kill Tony if need be. The rest of the fight is horrific for Tony, he is a punching bag, he is rocked so often the crowd seems to be in shock, is this the worst beating they have ever seen, i think so. Cerdan just keeps hitting Zale with every known punch except for a Gavilan bolo. The end comes just before the bell in the 11th, I thought Cerdan had hit tony with his hardest shots but no, suddenly he digs real deep and hits Tony with the hardest punches of the fight and Tony has a delayed reaction, at first I think he will stay standing, he doesn't fall to the canvas, instead he slumps as if he has just died right there, thankfully he doesn't die but he just hangs there in limbo like he is dead the only thing holding him up are the ropes, the bell has rung before the ref can finish or start the count, I can't remember if the ref got to begin the count but Tony's seconds, white in terror rush to help Tony back to his stool but there is no force on earth that can get Tony back out to start the 12th, not even if god actually exists could he/she get Tony back out there, it is the end of a glorious career and he goes on to live a long life in retirement and he actually becomes close to Graziano, those two seemed to hate each other. Sadly and tragically poor Marcel Cerdan does not get to even live to retirement instead he breaks his arm in his defence against LaMotta and loses his title, then getting a rematch Marcel cerdan boards a plane from paris but this plane is not going to reach the USA and it crashes and kills Cerdan, this sent all of France into grief and his girl the famous Edith Piaff will never get over his death.

Now don't tell me his resume sucks, Al Hostak he beats 3 times, He loses to Soose, beats Abrams comfortably, has three all time classic wars with Rocky and he has Cerdan on his resume and loses but in the process showed more guts in one loss than any 50 fighters from today combined. Not only that but his 2nd fight with Rocky is the Ring magazines fight of the year for 1947 and the Cerdan fight the Ring magazine fight of the year from 1948 and he should have got the fight of the year for his 1946 fight against Graziano..... not many fighters can claim two fights of the year IN A ROW............. As Far as I am concerned SuzieQ this case is CLOSED....., Tony Zale is a Fu*k*i*g LEGEND.:bart:bart:bart

 

I've tried to be open-handed here and give both sides of the argument, on that note I have to call the underlined statement bullsh*t.
Charley Burley was a contender for Zale's title in the following years.
1942.no2
1943 unranked
1944.no3
1945.no2
1946.no2
That places him in the top 3 for 4 of those 5 years.
* Zale's title was frozen during the war years of 42,43,44.

* In1943, the year Burley was not top ten ranked he had 6 fights a no contest with Holman Williams,a draw with Cocoa Kid , and wins over Chase, Wade and Massey,and Bobby Birch.
From the end of 1942, when he lost a split dec to Lloyd Marshall whilst conceding 6lbs, Burley did not lose another fight until July 1945 ,and he beat among others,Cha***3, Massey,Wade ,and Moore.
I'm not suggesting it's Zale's fault Burley didn't get a shot , for 3 years Zale was in the Navy, what I'm saying is the idea that Burley was not a standout contender during Zale's reign is absurd!

 

I did say case closed but you got this one more post in so I will humour you.

10th best ??? he was the champion dude, read my two part rebuttal above to see he didn't dodge anyone, fear is not possible in such a man, it is an insult to a war hero and an insult to my intelligence. I reckon he beats Burley and the middleweight Moore who was still pretty raw then... sure that prime Moore beats all the above there too except for maybe Ezzard Charles but if Charles was ever a MW he grew out of that way before his prime, Tony wins against Charles too but loses to the light heavyweight version just as another very great light heavyweight called Conn proves. Lloyd Marshall and Holman Williams like Burley are these murderers row guys who have received far more praise long after retirement than they ever had in their careers. Yes they were talented very good pros but like Burley, overrated in my opinion and I am far from the only person who believes that, besides, the mob didn't think any of them worthy of a title shot and they run the business, as a business if they thought they would make more money out of a Williams, Holman or a Burley they sure would have rushed them into a title shot. Moore was nowhere near ready as I already said. I reckon Zale beats LaMotta and I am a huge LaMotta fan as I have stated plenty of times so there is no bias here at all. Eddie Booker I am only vaguely aware of so I will top Zale there, that leaves Sugar Ray Robinson, most fans GOAT, sure he has the talent to beat anybody under light heavyweight but as I and Burt Bienstock have already gone over, Ray had serious doubts and in retirement admitted that didn't think he was ready for Zale, and this is from the guy who had beaten La Motta in their last 4 bouts so where does that info make La Motta better than Zale ? I know it isn't proof but is the GOAT wrong ?... he knew when La Motta got the MW title he had a huge chance of taking his title cos he had proved often enough he had Jake's measure but he did not even try to fight Zale ? in fact why take the risk, he hadn't had any problems making the WW weight limit yet that was coming as he passes into his thirties but in the 40's Ray was still in his twenties, he couldn't make the MW weight without putting on fat and risking defeat, no Ray was a smart fighter, in fact he is the smartest fighter to ever live, yes he was certainly a much better fighter but Zale was just dangerous, read my two part rebuttal and just look at his record after taking his first half of the title, he is not just winning fights he is almost MURDERING his opponents, his run of knockouts is Tysonesque for gods sake, I disagree totally with your statement, from what I see looking at facts is a guy any middleweight at the time must strike some fear into them, to not even worry about the guy would be almost inhuman, what makes any of them think they can have this fight in the bag easily ???? come on, think about it, Zale was a KO machine mate. His career KO percentage is %52 but if you start from 1940 his KO percentage is more like %85, that makes him a very feared man indeed........ now case Closed mate, if you wanna argue any more, choose a different fighter cos I am done with you on this, I just spent way over an hour and a half writing what has become a small book.

 

OK sure he was a ranked fighter but then you make my case by saying rightly that Tony was at war and couldn't fight Burley and for the most part of 1946 Tony is easing himself back into boxing after a massive 4 year layoff and he deserved and earned the right to do so. We can't even draw a colour line here, Joe Louis and Ray Robinson and Beau Jack and Ike Williams a Bob Montgomery and Henry Armstrong and Kid Chocolate were just some of the black fighters who had smashed that line to bits. Burley was good and yeah maybe unlucky to miss a title shot, but lets remember this mate, at least ten million people were way more unlucky than Charley was during 1939 to 1945 weren't they ?