''Tony Zale Was A Greater Fighter Than Sanchez, Spinks, Jones Jr, Harada, Pryor.....

T, I wish I could help but all I know about Eddie Borden was he was a boxing writer for the ring,and overseas correspondent during WW2. Charley Rose was and old-time boxing expert...

 

Welcome S. Good to hear an "oldtimer" on ESB...Yes there was great fighters before television...
I agree with you that the young MW Ezzard Charles would have beaten Ray Robinson at 160 pounds.Charles was a monster starting out at MW, but what does the fact that a fading Ken Overlin, decisioned and drew with Ezzard Charles, say about Ken Overlin and the great roster of the 1930s
middleweights. ? Incidentally Ken Overlin who was called the "poor man's
Harry Greb, said." I am convinced Harry Greb would have licked me and a contender one after another with no rest in between "...Heady words from Ken Overlin about the Pittsburgh Windmill methinks...:hi:

 

Which is why Lamotta gets the most respect, and was better than Zale

 

Zale was a great fighter , but there are too many names mssing from his resume.
Burley
Williams
Moore
Tunero
Booker
Charles
Chase
Lamotta
Overlin
Belloise
Lytell
Basora
Richards

To name a few.

 

Tony Zale was off 4 years due to war service.
Turned pro in 1934, didn't have an easy ride. Didn't break through into the rankings until 1939, and was in the army by 1942.
During those brief 3-4 years he fought his fair share of relevant names. That's how he became universal recognized champion, I guess.

 

Agreed. Nothing can be taken away from Gomez. He beat the hell out of an outstanding bw/sbw that night.

 

he, I'm aware what Jake LaMotta said about ducking the black fighters of the day...But the record shows as posted before that many white boxers before LaMotta tackled some "murderers row",fighters on an equal basis and some success.. Of course the top black middleweights were feared
because of their ability,and if we are to condemn Tony Zale for not tackling
a Burley, Holman Williams, Bert [very nice name] Lytell,etc, it is ALSO true that Ray Robinson COULD HAVE, but DIDN'T give a shot to Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Bert Lytell, Eddie Booker etc ,had his OWN reasons to avoid these true black MW threats of that time, I recall...
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, I say...
I still say at 160 pounds I have Freddie Steele, Fred Apostoli, Tony Zale,
Ken Overlin H2H over Jake in 15 rds... Regardless of the fact that LaMotta
avoided very few if any...JMO...

 

I guess Spinks was greater , according 2 what i know now . I rank Spinks in my top 100 and not Zale .

 

Zale spent his entire postwar career ducking LaMotta.

 

Graziano and Cerdan were bigger draws.

 

I believe Ernest Hemingway said it best , when he was talking to a sports fan and mentioned Greb. The guy didn't know who he was and Hem. said, "Imagine not knowing one of our greatest Americans". Greb was just unbelieveable. Two more guys that get not a lot of ink I think, but were very good; Freddie Steele and the great Fred Apolstoli. 2 terrific fighters and hitters. Nowadays, everyone is stuck on how long someone reigned and not in who they fought. These guys were terrific fighters who could fight and beat ANYONE in the middleweight history on a good night. All this pound for pound nonsense (and I do it too) really takes away from the real import; the fighters of each era themselves and their exciting fights. I'd much rather watch a thrill a minute fighter like Graziano or Limon or Ward, eaen with their flaws (which make their fights and victories so exciting) than a safety firts boring guy like Mayweather any day. My Dad always said that he thought Ace Hudkins was one of the best middles he ever saw and thought he would wear out the guys from the 40s. That's great cause that is the era and fighters he liked best.
I used to go to in to L.A a lot when younger than now and saw a lot of Cuevas' fights and thought he was about the most exciting guy style and for getting the crowd going that I ever saw. He was like Graziano in New York for you probably. I kind of got off course but my point is that greatness is really up to each viewer and what they like and with fighters, sometimes you have to see them and their opponants to realize how good they were

 

These are really good points.
Greatness is very subjective.
There are people on this forum who want to insist on a consensus or don't allow much room for variation, but I've always imagined that different people will produce vastly different ideas on who the greatest were - and who is greater than whom, etc. - ..... and I've always figured that plurality of opinion A GOOD THING.

:good

 

:good

I've said it a million times you CAN'T make full proof lists and P4P nonsenses, they aren't complete nor accurate, nor all inclusive (of All the Real Top men). But most of all, the diffence at the TOP is very little indeed.

Many, Many, Many GREATS!

 

S, nice to hear from you...Ah, the name Ace Hudkins evokes memory's as my dad and uncle lost all ther moolah when they bet on the great LW prospect Ruby Goldstein [the new Benny Leonard] to ko a towhead kid from Nebraska called Ace Hudkins...Goldstein was a young tremendous puncher who kod everybody he fought, or dropped all his opponents. The mob bet that Ruby would ko Ace in the very first round, and in the first round Goldstein dropped Hudkins on his back and Ruby started to wave to his fans[my dad included],when he heard a roar and turning around saw Hudkins on his feet coming after him...Well the TOUGH [as LaMotta]
Hudkins kod Goldstein, ruined his confidence forever and exposed the fact that hard punching Ruby had a glass chin...My dad and uncle were broke and had to walk miles for home...Many years later at a boxing seminar in New Hampshire I met the retired referee Ruby Goldstein,and had a long chat with him, but I was wise enough not to bring up this fight that ruined his career...But Ace Hudkins was an animal in the ring...Cheers.

 

And not nearly as good or threatening as LaMotta, probably a coincidence :roll: