We frequently do Top 10 HW lists all the time but this time I was thinking maybe we should do one based on number of wins over ranked opponents thereby evaluating the body of work of each respective fighter. Anyway anyone care to post thier list?
Well, going by more or less by Ring (which has a cutoff point of 1924). You have: Dempsey at three (Gibbons, Firpo, Sharkey) I think you could add Brennan, Smith, Fulton, Miske, Morris) so I would say for him its prob. 8. Tunney: 4 (Weinert (guess), Risko, Dempsey and Heeney) Sharkey: 8 (Godfrey, Maloney, Wills, Risko, Renault, Scott, Carnera, Schmeling) Schmeling: 7 (Risko, Uzcudun, Sharkey, Stribling, Hamas, Louis, Neusel) Louis: 21 (Ramage, Perroni, Brown, Carnera, Levinsky, Baer, Pastor, Farr, Mann, Schmeling, Galento, Godoy, Simon, B. Baer, Conn, Nova, Maureillo, Walcott, Agramonte, Savold, Brion) Charles:11 (Ray, Baksi, Maxim, Walcott, Bivins, Valentino, Louis, Oma, Layne, Brion, Satterfield) Walcott 7 (Baksi, Maxim, Bivins, Oma, Ray, Argamonte, Charles) Rocky: 8 (LaStarza, Layne, Louis, Savold, Walcott, Charles, Cockell, Moore) Patterson: 8 (Jackson, Moore, Harris, London, Ingo, Machen, Chuvalo, Bonavena) Liston: 8 (Bethea, DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Harris, Folley, Machen, Patterson) Ali: 27 (Mitiff, Daniels, Lavoronte, Moore, Jones, Cooper, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, London, Mildenberger, Terrell, Folley, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Mac Foster, Bugner, Norton, Frazier, Foreman, Wepner, Lyle, Young, Evangelista, Shavers, Spinks) Frazier 8 (Bonavena, Machen, Jones, Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis, Ali, Bugner) Foreman: 5 (Frazier, Roman, Norton, Lyle, Moorer) Holmes: 18 (Shavers, Norton, Evangelista, Ocassio, Weaver, Zanon, Jones, LeDoux, Berbick, Spinks, Snipes, Cooney, Cobb, Witherspoon, Smith, Bey, Williams, Mercer) Tyson: 11 (Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno, Williams, Ruddock, Seldon) Holy: 11 (Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, Moorer, Ruiz, Rahman) Bowe 4 (Holyfield, Hide, Gonzales, Golota) Lennox: 15 (Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Jackson, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwande, Golota, Briggs, Holyfield, Grant, Tua, Tyson, Rahman, V. Klitschko) Wlad 5 (Byrd, Jefferson, McCline, Peter, Brock) that was tedious! I tried to get fighters in the top ten that year, or in the past two years or future two. (keeping in mind that the reason the contenders might be ranked out of the top ten was that they lost to the future champ). Some surprises there. I did not count rematches. I guess if you go by quality (near) top ten you have: 1. Ali 2. Louis 3. Holmes 4. Lewis (top four) 5-7 Charles/Tyson/Holy tie with 11. 8-13 Dempsey, Sharkey, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Frazier. tie with 8 14-15 Schmeling/Walcott tie with 7 I am sure I am missing some more "ranked" wins but that's fairly close.
I'm seeing a lot of errors here... You don't think Willard counts as a ranked opponent for Dempsey?Gomez and Johnson were definitely both ranked when Walcott beat them. Where's Matthews on Marciano's ledger? I'm pretty certain Jose Roman wasn't ranked when Foreman beat him, but Peralta and possibly Chuvalo were. In addition, the topic was "number of wins over ranked opponents," not, "number of ranked opponents beaten," and hence you're wrong to only count each fighter once; for example, since Marciano beat Walcott, Charles and LaStarza each twice, his total would actually be 12, and since Louis beat Pastor, Conn, Godoy, etc. each twice, he also has quite a few more wins than you credit him with here.
I think you have missed quite a few out. Louis for example had 32 wins over ranked oponents if I recall OLD FOGEYs analysis.
Langford made one hell of an effort there fellas. It's not something I have the patience to do in any hurry. :good
Dont know if this would help but this is a Ring-style year-end ratings that i previously put together, it's not perfect (modest) but it's probably as good as some of the Ring effords(immodest!) 1892 Champion Corbett 2. Jackson 3. Goddard 4. Slavin 5. Choynski 6. Fitzsimmons 7. Hall 8. Godfrey 9. McAuliffe 10. Kilrain 1893 Champion Corbett 2. Jackson 3. Fitzsimmons 4. Denver Smith 5. Hall 6. Goddard 7. Slavin 8. Choynski 9. McAuliffe 10. Godfrey 1894 Champion Corbett 2. Jackson 3. Fitzsimmons 4. Smith 5. Choynski 6. Maher 7. Goddard 8. Hall 9. Slavin 10. Godfrey 1895 Champion Maher 2. Fitzsimmons 3. Jackson 4. Slavin 5. Smith 6. Choynski 7. Felix 8. Hall 9. Creedon 10. O’Donnell 1896 Champion Corbett 2. Fitzsimmons 3. Maher 4. Choynski 5. Sharkey 6. Armstrong 7. Creedon 8. Goddard 9. Ruhlin 10. O’Donnell 1897 Champion Fitzsimmons 2. Maher 3. Sharkey 4. Choynski 5. Childs 6. Corbett 7. Ruhlin 8. Jeffries 9. O’Donnell 10. Armstrong 1898 Champion Fitzsimmons 2. Jeffries 3. Sharkey 4. Maher 5. Corbett 6. McCoy 7. Ruhlin 8. Childs 9. Armstrong 10. Choynski 1899 Champion Jeffries 2. Sharkey 3. Fitxsimmons 4. Maher 5. McCoy 6. Corbett 7. Kennedy 8. Ruhlin 9. Childs 10. Martin 1900 Champion Jeffries 2 Fitzsimmons 3 Corbett 4 McCoy 5 Ruhlin 6 Sharkey 7 Childs 8 Maher 9 Kennedy 10 Martin 1901 Champion Jeffries 2 Ruhlin 3 McCoy 4 Childs 5 Sharkey 6 Root 7 Martin 8 Maher 9 Griffin 10 Gardner 1902 Champion Jeffries 2 Fitzsimmons 3 Ruhlin 4 Martin 5 Johnson 6 Gardner 7 O’Brien 8 Root 9 Hart 10 Carter 1903 Champion Jeffries 2 Fitzsimmons 3 Johnson 4 Ruhlin 5 Gardner 6 Root 7 Hart 8 O’Brien 9 Armstrong 10 McVey 1904 Champion Jeffries 2 Johnson 3 Hart 4 Root 5 O’Brien 6 Gardner 7 Ruhlin 8 Ferguson 9 Martin 10 McVey 1905 Champion Hart 2 Johnson 3 O’Brien 4 Jeanette 5 Root 6 Fitzsimmons 7 Ruhlin 8 Kaufman 9 J Twin Sullivan 10 Schreck 1906 Champion Burns 2 Johnson 3 O’Brien 4 Langford 5 Jeanette 6 McVey 7 Kaufman 8 Schreck 9 Hart 10 Ruhlin 1907 Champion Burns 2 Johnson 3 Kaufman 4 Langford 5 Jeanette 6 McVey 7 O’Brien 8 Schreck 9 Jim Flynn 10 Sullivan 1908 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Kaufman 4 Burns 5 Jeanette 6 McVey 7 O’Brien 8 Hart 9 Ross 10 Schreck 1909 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Jeanette 4 McVey 5 Kaufman 6 Ketchell 7 O’Brien 8 Ferguson 9 Lang 10 Schreck 1910 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Jeanette 4 McVey 5 Kaufman 6 Burns 7 Lang 8 Jim Flynn 9 Dan Flynn 10 Curran Top 1911 champion Johnson 2 McVey 3 Langford 4 Jeanette 5 Wells 6 Jim Flynn 7 Al Palzar 8 Carl Morris 9 Dan Flynn 10 Clarke 1912 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Jeanette 4 McVey 5 Gunboat Smith 6 Willard 7 Ross 8 Mc Carthy 9 Jim Flynn 10 Palzar 1913 Champion Johnson 2 Smith 3 Langford 4 Jeanette 5 McVey 6 Jim Johnson 7 Pelkey 8 Willard 9 Moran 10 Carpentier 1914 Champion Johnson 2 Langford 3 Jeanette 4 McVey 5 Carpentier 6 Clarke 7 Dillon 8 Wills 9 Levinsky 10 Coffey 1915 Champion Willard 2 Johnson 3 Moran 4 Dillon 5 Wills 6 McVey 7 Jeanette 8 coffey 9 Langford 10 Morris 1916 CHAMPION Willard 2 Wills 3 Miske 4 Dillon 5 Morris 6 Levinsky 7 Moran 8 Weinert 9 McVey 10 Jeanette 1917 Champion Willard 2 Wills 3 Fulton 4 Langford 5 Norfolk 6 Miske 7 Greb 8 Dempsey 9 Jeanette 10 Gibbons 1918 Champion Willard 2 Wills 3 Dempsey 4 Fulton 5 Gibbons 6 Greb 7 Miske 8 Meehan 9 Madden 10 Jeanette 1919 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Fulton 4 Greb 5 Gibbons 6 Carpentier 7 Miske 8 Johnson 9 Norfolk 10 Brennan 1920 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Fulton 4 Greb 5 Gibbons 6 Carpentier 7 Miske 8 Norfolk 9 Tunney 10 Weinert 1921 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Fulton 4 Gibbons 5 Tunney 6 Carpentier 7 Miske 8 Greb 9 Beckett 10 Brennan 1922 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Greb 4 Gibbons 5 Miske 6 Tunney 7 F.Johnson 8 Brennan 9 Beckett 10 Carpentier 1923 Champion Dempsey 2 Wills 3 Firpo 4 Tunney 5 Carpentier 6 Miske 7 Gibbons 8 Greb 9 Renault 10 F.Johnson
I'd like to be clear on this, because it's been debated before...how would you define "ranked" for these list? Are we talking about fighters with a top ten ranking? Or is, say, top fifteen fine? Are the alphabet boxing org rankings fine, and if so do we pick and chose amongst them? How about The Ring ratings? Or is it going to be the potential grey area of personal opinion about who is and isn't worth rating? If a proper stab at this is going to be made, it's important to be very certain about these parameters right at the start. Get that in place and it's a lot more straightforward.
Re: Willard. I was going on how Ring normally ranks fighters, and if the fighter has not fought in a couple of years, then they cease to be ranked. I was going off of Ring's top ten. If a fighter does not fight he is stripped. Maybe you could argue that Willard shouldn't be stripped because of WWI, but, you could also argue that he hadn't beat anyone in three years. Semantics, not ness. an "error" I did miss Gomez, who became ranked the year after Walcott beat him, but Johnson was never ranked as a heavyweight by Ring. Ditto Matthews for Rocky. Jose Roman was ranked 7 by Ring, the year before Foreman beat him. Yes, Chuvalo was ranked and Peralta cracked the top ten (barely) the year before George beat him. So, I apologize to George Foreman. And give him two more. But that doesn't change the fact that for someone with so many fights, it is shocking almost how many were not against ranked opponents in either career. It was a rough draft and took a lot of time. I knew I would miss a couple and said as much.
well, if you choose to double up on ranked opponents I am sure Louis would be closer to 32. many other fighters would have more as well. I don't think it really changes the rankings at all. Since I kept everyone at one, perhaps it does favor fighters, like Holmes, Tyson and Lewis who normally just beat the top ten guys once. I chose to give points to just ranked fighters, not wins, because I also wanted to look into black dynamite fighters, who will be extremely high because they beat the same guys over and over. For instance, I am not counting at the moment, but I would expect Wills to be very high and skew the stats. just different ways to look at it.
Langford, a really interesting exercise and very well done. yes, I'm sure there are more holes in it, but I'm not looking for them, the information speaks for itself. On a completely contradictraory note, somebody, (Doughles, Bowe, Langford, Jackson, Baer.) without a great resume-sorry Langford and Jackson had decent resumes- might beat antbody that ever boxed-especially Bowe? ps I've been drinking!
Thank you for taking on this difficult task, I think the entire point of the excercise is that I wanted to add perspective to the occasional top 10 HW ATG lists.