Top 10 ATG List 168 Super Middleweights (Updated Feb 2020)

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by eltirado, Jan 16, 2020.


  1. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes.

    Reid had to fight 2 guys at once.

    Joe could have lost his title over there.
     
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  2. LANCE99

    LANCE99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Losing the WBO belt then would have been a blessing in disguise. :lol: But yeah, total robbery. Not to mention, Sven's style was just not very pleasing. Joe C v Ottke could have potentially been a horrendous fight to watch.
     
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  3. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, the fight would had to have been in Britain or somewhere neutral. But Sven was never leaving Germany.
     
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  4. Ra's Al-Ghul

    Ra's Al-Ghul The one and only! booted Full Member

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    1. Roy Jones, 2. Sven Ottke, 3. Steve Collins, 4. Joe Calzaghe, 5. Chris Eubanks, 6. Chong Pal-Park, 7. Graziano Rocchigiani, 8. Nigel Benn, 9. Frankie Liles, 10. Markus Beyer
     
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  5. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Collins is too high and Joe too low.

    I'd have to put Toney and Ward in there too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
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  6. Ra's Al-Ghul

    Ra's Al-Ghul The one and only! booted Full Member

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    Toney might be top 20, but he never won in that division against an elite boxer (of Super-Middleweight) and has only few title-defences.
    I have rather on the border Holmes and Kessler (maybe Malinga too).

    Collins has better wins than Calzaghe had, as he fought a lot of tomatocans there. Only Kessler was at his best, but who was never a pound for pound star (top 15).
     
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  7. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    But lots of guys didn't win against elite competition.

    Collins didn't beat anybody elite. And he hasn't got better wins than Joe.

    His claim to fame was beating a faded Eubank and a washed up Benn.

    Toney was a better fighter than Collins, and his easy win over Tim Littles was better than anything Collins did.
     
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  8. Ra's Al-Ghul

    Ra's Al-Ghul The one and only! booted Full Member

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    He defeated Eubanks and Benn each twice, when the first was (on paper) undefeated and both close to their peak. That version was 2 - 3 years younger than that which Calzaghe fought. Sellier was decent too (draw with Rocchigiani among others).

    Little was rather a journeyman and hardly top 10. Collins proved in the division much more and was undefeated in it.
     
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  9. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    1. Calzaghe--longevity, talent, raised the quality of opposition by thr end of his reign with Lacy and Kessler, the latter being one of the biggest wins in the divison
    2. Ward--talent and quality of opposition. Calzaghe getting Kessler first is the tiebreaker
    3. Jones--best h2h, likely best win h/o division. Rest of opp limited and time at 168 brief
    4. Froch--off resume
    5. Ottke--twenty defenses is never easy, half of them sucked but the other half were decent
    6. Collins
    7. Eubank
    8. Kessler
    9. Benn
    10. Toney
     
  10. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Beating Benn and Eubank twice looks good on paper, but not in reality.

    The only reason he rematched Eubank is because their first fight was so close. And that was a faded version of Eubank who was never the same after the Watson tragedy. Also, Eubank was extremely lucky to have been undefeated at that point. Many people think that he lost to Benn, Close and Schommer, and he's admitted himself that he should have lost to Benn and Schommer. So Collins beating Eubank in a very close fight was no special achievement.

    Benn faded fast after his fight with McClellan. He lost against Malinga and then he announced his retirement. He then came back for Collins, but he twisted his ankle. And that is the only reason that a rematch was needed. If he hadn't have injured himself, it would never have warranted one. You can't even class the first fight as a legitimate win for Collins.

    Collins was tough and he was a warrior. But he wasn't a great fighter and his resume is poor.

    Tim Littles was a good fighter who beat Frankie Liles.

    You can't rank Collins above Joe either on talent or resume.

    Collins' resume:

    Eubank x 2
    Benn x 2
    Seillier

    Joe's resume:

    Eubank
    Reid
    Woodhall
    Brewer
    Mitchell
    Lacy
    Kessler

    I agree with you that Collins fought a better version of Eubank, but it's not enough. Beating Eubank and a half retired, faded Benn, can't match the rest of Joe's wins.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
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  11. Ra's Al-Ghul

    Ra's Al-Ghul The one and only! booted Full Member

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    You have to of course, as it is not Collins fault when Benn injures himself.

    I think their rematch was a fair draw, I scored it that way too. But Rocchigiani deserved a win against him likely. Whatsoever Collins won both and Eubanks was not older than 32, as who is top 5 in the division and had not official lost, this were pretty big achievement. At least he didn't force to drop down a weight class, like Toney it did with faded Williams to a division where he never fought before.
    Calzaghes competition is weaker than Collins and Wards is even weaker.

    Little did it not in a world title bout, as there won Liles against him. But who dethorned him to became world champion first. So their first fight was not so meaningful.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
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  12. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Of course it wasn't Collins' fault. But you can't even rate that first win due to the injury. You can only really rate the 2nd. And that was against a version of Benn who had nothing left in the tank, who'd already retired once after losing to Malinga. So he has one win over a faded Benn. So that was nothing special.

    His biggest win was against Eubank in a very close fight, which then warranted a rematch.

    So he has 2 wins over Eubank and 1 over a faded Benn.

    How is that better than Joe's wins over Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Lacy and Kessler etc?

    It isn't.

    Collins has a very thin resume.

    Ward also has better wins against Kessler and Froch etc.
     
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  13. Ra's Al-Ghul

    Ra's Al-Ghul The one and only! booted Full Member

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    As you pointed before was Collins winning the first anyway, so it have to be rated.The injury was not caused by a foul or illegal action.
    You rather can't rate Lewis win over Klitschko, because he was losing most rounds and more tired.

    How can you rate Woodhall, who was far comvincingly defeated by Beyer one year before in his hometown, then had a very long lay-off before Calzaghe did a voluntary defence against him? There would have been even Lucas better around 2004.
    Reid was a very close fight that could have gone either way and who lost vs. 40 years old Malinga at his hometown previous.
    Lacy was totally overrated and hyped like Broner and Bert, but achieved less and was slower (without footwork) and very little output even early in his career (I have his 10. professional fight on the undercard of Jones vs. Tarver III on video).
    Eubanks was older and coming from two defeats, but had to cut weight a lot.
    Kessler has just very good basics but nothing special, he is very straight and orthodox, was maybe barely pound for pound top 20. This fight was also at the end close, especially the first half (had it just 116 - 115).

    So Collins had by far the better competition and also than Ward. But what matters is if Toney had accomplished more than Collins in Super-Middlweight and I don't think many could agree with that, which was the point. Anything else are just side-kicks of you.
     
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  14. eltirado

    eltirado Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    If you see older posts, you will notice I controversially rank Roy Jones higher than other folks do
    This content is protected


    So will try to point out where Andre Ward beats RJ:
    • The link above points out the first & most important reason, Roy Jones is physically Smaller
    • Andre Ward is impossible to defeat, he always finds a way to win, Roy Jones DQ himself in his prime
    • Andre Ward Gold vs Roy Jones Silver
    From a materialistic POV Roy Jones Junior was possibly the G.O.A.T at 154 reaching 16-0-0-0 (KO 16), no fighter becomes a physically better boxer moving up in weight, access to more resources & accumulated experience allows boxers to perform at a higher weight.

    As of H2H Roy Jones was matched perfectly above 154, luck intervened when Don King plan to turn Roy Jones into a fire-works show vs G-Man were ruined by Nigel Benn & the Effeminate Ref who aborted G-Man 1st Round KO. Don King loves matching his own fighters vs the stylistic nightmare, which seemed evil, but was excellent Promotional work. G-Man at any weight would have given Roy Jones the first KO loss, mainly because of G-Man size advantage
     
  15. RightLeftCombo

    RightLeftCombo Member Full Member

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    Oh, thanks.
     
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