Top 10 ATG List 168 Super Middleweights (Updated Feb 2020)

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by eltirado, Jan 16, 2020.


  1. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    33,410
    3,443
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 7, 2012
    Ra's Al-Ghul,

    Yes, he was winning the first one, and if Benn hadn't have injured himself, it would have been a clean win which would never have warranted a rematch. But because of the injury, they fought again. But then you want to use it to try and enhance Collins' resume, by saying that he beat him twice. Okay, officially, he did beat him twice. But that first win shouldn't be celebrated, and Benn was finished by that point. So there is nothing special about beating a version of Benn who was at the end of road, who'd already come out of retirement after losing to Thulani Malinga.

    On paper, 'Benn x 2' looks more impressive than just 'Benn'

    The same also applies to seeing 'Eubank X 2'

    Out of the 3 fighters, (Joe, Collins and Ward) Collins is the one with the thinnest resume. And he's also the least talented of the 3.

    Regarding Lewis-Vitali, I really felt for Vitali. Because he was winning the fight and he deserved a rematch.

    Okay. But again, Benn was beaten by Malinga before Collins beat him, and Frederic Seillier had already been knocked out by Frankie Liles before Collins fought him.

    True.

    True.

    True. Collins beat a better version of Eubank.

    True. But he was better than a faded Benn and Frederic Seillier. And you could also argue that he was at the same level as the Eubank that Collins fought. And I would bet that most people would rate Kessler higher than the version of Eubank that Collins fought.

    No he didn't. Kessler and Froch were better wins for Ward, than what Seillier and Benn were for Collins.

    All of Joe's combined wins were also better wins than what Collins had. Okay, Joe didn't have lots of great wins, but he had more than what Collins did.

    Again, you can't rate Collins higher than those 2, either on resume or ability.

    Whilst non of them have great resumes, again, Collins has the thinnest. And Ward and Joe were just better fighters than what Collins was. You can't just rate Collins higher because he beat 2 guys who were the biggest names.

    Regarding Toney, in terms of ability, he was also superior to Collins.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
    eltirado likes this.
  2. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    33,410
    3,443
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 7, 2012
    eltirado,

    Roy wasn't physically smaller than Andre. Andre is 1-2 inches taller, but Roy had a bigger reach. They're practically the same size. And their size wouldn't have been a factor on the outcome of a fight. The fight would have been decided on how they'd have matched up stylistically. And the match would have favoured Roy due to his speed, power and elusiveness.

    Andre wasn't impossible to beat. You can't make that claim just because he was unbeaten.

    Were Calzaghe, Floyd and Marciano also impossible to beat? And again, he only had 32 fights.

    Roy was 49-1 at one point, which was far more impressive.

    Roy needed to either retire early or to change his unique style to compensate for his age. But he did neither and paid a heavy price. But in his prime, he was superior to Andre.

    Comparing Olympic gold to silver is ridiculous. Especially as the whole boxing world knows that Roy won gold in Seoul. It was one of the biggest robberies in the history of amateur boxing.

    Roy only weighed in twice at 154 in the pro ranks.

    Even if Gerald had beaten Benn, it was visibly clear that there was something wrong with Gerald. Also, Don King's involvement would have been a huge obstacle in making the fight. He always wanted future options on Roy back then, which Roy and his team would never agree too.

    Why would Gerald have given Roy his first KO loss? Why the certainty?

    Gerald would have been extremely dangerous, but Roy's speed would also have been a huge factor.
     
    eltirado likes this.
  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft The Cobra Will Always Bite Back... Full Member

    14,451
    17,524
    Sportsbook:
    500
    Mar 3, 2019
    Based on the actual 168 division, not old LHWs who were best at 168lbs.

    #1, Andre Ward
    #2, Joe Calzhage
    #3, Roy Jones Jr
    #4, Carl Froch
    #5, Mikkel Kessler
    #6, Steve Collins
    #7, James Toney
    #8, Chris Eubank
    #9, Chong Pal Park
    #10, Nigel Benn
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
    AwardedSteak863 and eltirado like this.
  4. eltirado

    eltirado Boxing Junkie Full Member

    14,897
    1,174
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 31, 2013
    Olympics
    • Roy Jones Jr. --- Silver Medalist --- 156 lbs
    • Andre Ward ------ Gold Medalis ----- 178 lbs

    Professional
    • Roy Jones Jr. --- 154 lbs (16-0 World Ranked Contender)
    • Andre Ward --- 168 lbs (28-0 World Champion)

    Yes Roy Jones had reach over Ward & possibly can equal the range in a very clean smooth fight, except Roy Jones was fragile physically & needed the range/speed enhanced advantage to keep a safe-zone. Andre Ward will take advantage of Roy Jones physical weakness & fight like Tito|Greb for this fight, Roy Jones will get frustrated early, then KOed as he is the one with the weaker chin.

    Roy Jones is better off at 154 where his reach, size can save him from guys of Andre Ward size-toughness, Roy Jones is lucky he never got to mix it with Rangy G-Man like Don King was setting him up for that one, that would have been a stylistic nightmare for Roy Jones
     
  5. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft The Cobra Will Always Bite Back... Full Member

    14,451
    17,524
    Sportsbook:
    500
    Mar 3, 2019
    Good list, I like this one alot
     
    Ducklerr, eltirado and NoNeck like this.
  6. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft The Cobra Will Always Bite Back... Full Member

    14,451
    17,524
    Sportsbook:
    500
    Mar 3, 2019
    Looking at this, the ones in orange are guys I'd pick Gerald McClellan to beat.

    And the Benn fight could've been over in 1 with a different ref, and would've been today.
     
    eltirado and Loudon like this.
  7. yeyo monster

    yeyo monster Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,201
    929
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    May 4, 2012
    1.ward
    2.roy jones jr
    3.froch
    4.slappy
     
    eltirado likes this.
  8. eltirado

    eltirado Boxing Junkie Full Member

    14,897
    1,174
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 31, 2013
    G-Man officially lost on that chance, had he KOed Benn like Don King wanted, he would gave Roy Jones his first Clean KO Loss

    As of the rest of the Orange, we don't know the CNS limit of an Undefeated boxer who never been KOed, so that is going too far & KO is G-Man only chance to win
     
    George Crowcroft likes this.
  9. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    33,410
    3,443
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 7, 2012
    Again, they were almost equal in terms of size and weight. When Roy turned pro, he was weighing in between 154-160, and so were his opponents. And he was weighing 160 within his first 10 fights. He was never really a JMW in the pro ranks. By the time he'd reached his early 20's, it was becoming increasingly difficult for him to make 160. He was rehydrating by a lot of weight. So how could he have been better off as a JMW? He couldn't even have regularly made JMW.

    Where you have said that the most important factor would have been Ward's size advantage, is frankly, silly.

    Prime for prime, they'd have been of similar size and fight night weight.

    Roy wasn't fragile physically.

    Andre knocking out Roy would have been the least likely thing to have happened out of all of the possible scenarios.

    Again, the fight wouldn't have been determined by size. It would have been determined by how they'd have matched up stylistically. And stylistically, the fight would have favoured Roy. He was much faster, much more powerful, and much harder to hit.

    The biggest factor would have been Roy's speed.

    Roy's speed and unorthadox style would have been a huge issue for Andre.

    The most likely scenario would have been a cautious decision win for Roy.

    Regarding a fight with Gerald, again, it would also have been a very difficult fight for Gerald too.
     
    eltirado likes this.
  10. herbzg

    herbzg Euro-Level Athlete Full Member

    1,793
    146
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 5, 2009
    There’s Ward as clear number one . And then the rest. Calzaghe got dropped by a mummified Roy Jones and lost to a severely past prime Hopkins
     
    eltirado likes this.
  11. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    33,410
    3,443
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 7, 2012
    1. Gerald clearly had issues in the Benn fight. Watch the documentary. Even before the fight. He may not even have fought again afterwards even if he'd have beaten Benn in a round.

    2. A fight against Roy would have been extremely difficult to make.

    3. It's certainly not a given that Gerald would have beaten a prime version of Roy. And especially if he wasn't physically and mentally at 100%.
     
    eltirado likes this.
  12. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    33,410
    3,443
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 7, 2012
    We're only focusing on what happened at SMW.

    The top 3 have to be:

    Roy
    Andre
    Joe

    It's hard to separate Andre and Joe.
     
    eltirado likes this.
  13. hoopsman

    hoopsman Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,129
    241
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 24, 2005
    Ward is a brilliant in-game technician to be sure, but an absolute prime Roy at 168lbs would have been a bridge too far for the Son of G.
     
    eltirado, Loudon and George Crowcroft like this.
  14. AwardedSteak863

    AwardedSteak863 Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,588
    2,240
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 16, 2018
    Good list. I see it pretty much the same way except I would put Ottke at 6. Top 5 is solid.
     
    eltirado and George Crowcroft like this.
  15. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

    12,185
    5,637
    Sportsbook:
    1,605
    Apr 3, 2012
    Frankie Liles might deserve a low spot. He’s forgotten now but beat Littles and Nunn.
     
    George Crowcroft, eltirado and Loudon like this.


Sign up for ESPN+ and Stream Live Sports! Advertisement