Top 10 ATG White Heavyweights

McVey,

Keep believing what a paid sparring partner said in a book full of errors as if it was the gospehl truth. Talk about hopeless. You are mistaken. FYI Bob Armstrong did not train Johnson for the fight. He was in Jeffries camp.

I try to interpret history. You just have man love for Johnson and for some reason disdain Jeffrres. Whatever.

I have posted the lead up press to Jeffries vs Jackson. If you read any of it, the reports said Jackson looked good and was in shape. There was no mention of him being too ill to fight. Though past his best, Jackson trained hard and accorting to the press who was there regained his form.

You say Johnson could have Ko'd Jeffries int he 1st round? This is absurd. If you watch the early portion of the fight, Johnson was ultra cautious and resorted to a lot of clinching. If you watched the mid rounds, Johnson landed plenty of hard stuff. It took Jeffries tireding and an accumulation of blows in the heat of the desert to produce the end.

 

Peter Jackson was not a top 10 heavyweight in the world when Jeffries beat him. This is proven by his subsequent knockout loss to 1-1 jim jeddford. the very Fact Jackson was coming off a SIX year layoff when he fought jeffries and was an abusive alchoholic shows he was a shot fighter.

 

I have a personal dislike of Johnson actually, Dempsey is my man.
Ali looked good when he got in the ring with Holmes and he hadnt been out of the ring for 6 years ,did not have TB ,and did not drink, looks mean nothing.I dont say Johnson could have kod Jeffries in the first Smith did,though I think Johnson carried Jeffries ,and could certainly have finished him earlier,just as he could have Burns, ,and Ketchel.

 

Well, okay then, if Jackson wasnt the coloured champion, who was? Which fighter in 1898 was the best coloured fighter in the world?

He certainly was accepted as one of the three best ever, when he met Jeffries. You obviously dont rate Jackson, which is fair enough. To be honest, i havent formed a final opinion, but he seems to have been one of the 3 best fighters ever. Who had a better reputation than Jackson when he lost to Jackson. John L Sullivan, Corbett and Fitzsimmons. I would guess. It is interesting that you dont rate Jackson at all, on paper his reputation seems a little thin, i will give you that, but thoughts of the time seem to rate him very highly. In fact, if Sullivan didnt face Corbett, it seems that he most think he should have faced Jackson. I am very surprised that you dont rate him at all. Hopefully Jackson will be Pollacked some time in the future, because i think he is a very interesting fighter.

One side issue to note, is taht When Jack Johnson won the World Title, the grave of Peter Jackson on his way back from winning the world title. He certainly seemed to have the respect of everyone, if nothing else.

So he was a hopeless alcoholic when he KOd Frank Slavin. Very interesting.

The fitz situation is complicated a little more because of the arm injury.

He still deserves some credit for doing what needed to be done.

He certainly did a lot better against Fitz than world title challenger Bill Lang who took 12 rounds to beat him. He deserves some credit. Admittedly it means nothing of a Fitz-Johnson prime for prime battle.

Well we can all speculate. Either way, it does not matter. The fight was not fixed (i dont think Jeffries through the fight, do you). How in the world would anyone know if Jeffries slept at night, did Jeffries or his wife ever discuss it? I have no doubt that Jeffries knew he was in trouble. It is certainly rumoured that he realised well before the fight that he did not still have it and probably guessed he was going to lose. That he still took the fight and lasted 14 is a testament to him.

Saying Johnson could have beat him in the first is just silly. If he changed his style, anything could have happened, are you suggesting that he fought the way he fought Choynski? Johnson showed Jeffries respect and was ultra cautious. He fought to win and to make sure of it. He did a damn good job. It certainly wasnt total one way traffic but it was a comprehensive thumping, as it should have been.

It is a little sad that you have such little faith in fighters, thinking Johnson would bag or hold back etc, just because of some tiny ambiguous quote. The World Title set Johnson and anyone else who held it up for life. It would be one massive payout to get him to tank in a world title fight. And it isnt as if Johnson Needed to fight Jeffries or to hype the contest. Both were set to make big dollars financially no matter which way it went. In fact, in all honesty if Jeffries were to come back why in the world would he care if Johnson through the match. He was only about money and hated the fight game. He wasnt fighting again. He could have easily made this a 10 round no decision bout. The more i think about the more i think that this particular fixed fight stories is one of the more unlikely ones.

Here is an interesting question, who did the better against Johnson, Old Jeffries or Burns?

 

There are reports (according to Cyberboxingzone) that Jackson fought a 10 and 6rd Draw with Jeffords in 1899. Even if these were exhibitions, an exhibition in those days did not mean what it does these days.

That site also lists a 25 rnd draw with Billy Warren on Dec 2 1899. Why should those 3 results be forgotten. Are they made up or does anyone have any reports. If they are true, do they shed a different light on things?

 

Hank Griffin bob armstrong and Frank Childs were certainly alot better than the shot version of Jackson. Jackson was knocked out by 1-1 jim jeddfords!! he was shot!!

 

The problem is that Jeffries had already KOd Hank Griffin and Bob Armstrong was beaten later in the year.

Frank Childs was kod more than once by Bob Armstrong around about this time. Plus there is that unconfirmed Jeffries win over Childs and Denver Ed Smith. Either way, I dont see any coloured fighter at this point in time, who could realistically claim to be a champion over and above Jeffries, because he beat the best of them.

 

Question for you,what importance to you put on a title ,arbitrarily bestowed by promoters to sell a fight? A fight in which one of the protagonists ,the "Champion" had won said title by beating a man with a 1-3-9 record,,and was himself a LHvy.?
What legitimacy do you give to the claim that a man can still be the said "champion" , even though he NEVER defended it in 10 YEARS and then engages in a fight after being retired for 6 years?
Personal opinion may give Jackson a shot at being one of the three best ever.WHEN HE DREW WITH CORBETT, but that was not the fighter Jeffries faced.Personally I would put Sullivan above Jackson,Jackson's winning resume is extremely thin,Paddy SLavin , and George Godfrey are the best names on it, take a detailed look at both their records,see any great feats?
It isnt that I dont rate Jackson,its that the best fighters are allmost all missing from his record,he predated Fitz ,Jeffries ,and Sharkey,and was probably avoided by Corbett for a return match,not his fault.Jackson gets the benefit of the "he was black and shunned like the plague a little too much I think, only drawing with the average O Donell.may be revealing.I dont think the Black fighters at that time were very good actually, certainly not as good as the Mcvey,Langford ,Jeanette ,trio,Jackson was a standout in a small talent pool , looking at the records.
Jackson had a physical breakdown whilst in England ,and friends and fellow fighters commented on it ,this has been discussed in various threads on here and should be easily found,this was AFTER he beat Slavin ,but I assume you knew that and was just being churlish.Interestingly enough Slavin and Maher also became alcoholics.
James Jackson Jeffries, where do we put him ,or more to the point where do I put him?
I think up to Jack Johnson ,he was the best Heavyweight there had been.
He beat smaller older men ,but as I stated several times that was not his fault,I think he should have given Corbett a rematch a lot sooner than 3 years later, ditto Fitz, but eventually he did.
Jeffries fights with Munroe and Finnegan are disgraces IMO.
The Munroe debacle was probably not Jeffries fault Munroe got hold of a canny manager who blew their first encounter up ,out of all proportion stating that Jeffries was floored by the miner,he was NOT. Jeffries was in an invidious position ,he was damned if he did and damned if he didnt, so he did, Munroe had a panic attack and allmost soiled himself ,when faced with the reality of an angry Boilermaker advancing upon him ,not an edifying pugilistic classic.The Finnegan 55 sec blowout is inexcusable imo.Jeffries beat the two men who had preceded him ,both greats in their way ,but he did it with some degree of difficulty ,and barely edged Sharkey ,who Fitz stopped twice ,irrespective of what Wyatt Earp said.
I think Jeffries defence ,and power are overated,,his durability is a given ,
How long he would be allowed to continue in later times is a moot point.
Jack Johnson.Johnson was an enigma ,he could be kind and generous,mean spirited and insufferably preening ,he was an ego maniac, a very brave man Imo ,but not a man of great character.I have zero interest in his sex life, but I think you ,like Mendoza fall in the trap of judging Johnson by how many rounds opponents lasted against him ,and comparing that with how many they went with his contemporaries.Johnson was a lazy fighter and often a lazy trainer, how many rounds Burns went with him doesnt tell half the story.A better question might be how many did Burns win? Like wise Ross, Ketchel .
The OBrien farce was a con on the public,OBrien signed for a 6 rd NO DEC Fight, OBrien admitted later in life that he took part in many fixed fights[ he tried to fix the rematch with Burns], the fight itself was not fixed ,but O Brien had zero power and could only win by koing Johnson ,Johnson knew this would not happen ,and took the oportunity to come into the ring untrained and with a hangover, reports are that O Brien ran away for the 6 rds with a slothful Johnson padding after him grinning but doing little himself, the crowd booed both men lustily ,Jack didnt give a **** he had his garuantee thats all he cared about.I beleive Johnson would have gone into the tank in a fight if the money was sufficient.I beleive the Willard fight was straight.Jeffries ? I dont know It is a fact that Jeffries bet on FITZ in their first fight , his rationale being," If I win I wont need it,and if I lose it will be very handy".
How do I know Jeffries did not sleep the night before the Johnson fight ? It is a matter of record,and he did not sleep with his wife ,when Jeffries could be heard pacing the floor by William Muldoon ,Jeffries wife approached his bedroom and inquired if he was allright ,Jeffries curtly told her to retire to her own room.Jeffries had not eaten that night and had retired to bed early ,the man was overought.
The fact that Jeffries lasted 14 rds ,into the 15th IS a testament to his game ness ,and to Johnson's cruelty which he was entitled to show I think ,it was his big moment in the sun and he was in no hurry to relinquish it. Second round, "don't rush Jim ,I can go on like this allnight", later in the fight ,"do they [the punches] hurt Jim"? Jeffries ,"no they dont hurt". A cat playing with a half dead mouse.

I find it hilarious that Jeffries was a shell of himself when he made his aborative comeback ,after 6 years of idleness.Yet, according to Jeffries boosters,Jackson ,after the same amount of time out of the ring,and an incurable alcoholic, suffering from the consumption that would kill him within three years is STILL the Best Coloured Fighter IN THE WORLD, what a crock of POO!

 

Funny...

 

Frank Childs beat Bob Armstrong SIX times!!!!!

I dont think so either, but I do think Jeffries should have fought Martin shortly after he beat fitzimmons in the rematch, and he should have fought jack johnson instead of jack munroe.

 

The only thing funny here is how Vitali committed arguebably the most cowardly act in Heavyweight history...Quitting on his stool while well ahead on the cards with 2 rounds to go vs a featherfisted cruiserweight who possessed no danger to him. Wlad would never ever do something like this. Vitali did. Not to mention Vitali waiting till one week before the fight then putting off the Hasim Rahman fight 4 times then retiring LOL. Vitali does not deal with pain well.

 

A few points of fact;
1) jackson never fought Billy Warren.
2) jacksn did not ko Maher or even floor him, Peter refused to come out for round 3. Maher was still an amateur at this point.
3) Armstrong never ko'd Childs, Childs was his nemesis.
Also in 1898 IMO Armstrong, Childs, Charley Stevenson, possibly C.C.Smith, Hank Griffin come to mind as better than Jackson.
and lest all this seems an attack on Jackson his wins over Slavin, Godfrey, Cardiff, Lees, O 'Donnell and Denver Ed Smith were all excellent and amounted to a clean out of half the top 10 at the time.