Top 10 by Decade - Divisional Ranking Experiment

Thanks for doing all the hard work setting the welters up.

Comments--

1930's--no surprises. I wonder how Henry Armstrong will do with his ratings split between three divisions. It will probably take your final totaling of all ratings to give him a fair shake.

1940's--the expected complete domination by Robinson. The other thing I noticed is that the "murderer's row" fighters really weren't dominating the ratings at welter (or middle). The much better case for them is at light-heavyweight.

1950's--Basilio winning the middleweight championship in 1957 cost him the #2 position among the welters. He was the only champ there was in 1957 and successfully defended the title that year, but gets no points. Just one of those things. The other fighter who stands out is Del Flanagan. I will do a separate post on him.

1960's--a little surprised that Rodriguez edged Griffith, but their fights were always very tight. Rodriguez winning means Monzon just comes up a sliver short of joining Ali, Marciano, and Charles on the list of those who beat three men who headed a division for a decade.

Overall, I will be interested in the final welter totaling and if Robinson slips into the #1 spot despite being hurt in the ratings by WWII. Interestingly, while some (Lesnevich, Mauriello) were really helped by WWII, I think Louis and Robinson were hurt. Louis by not getting more defenses. Robinson on your decade totals.

*on Robinson--it is interesting that Robinson dominated the welters in the 1940's and the middles in the 1950's, but did not beat his runner-ups, Cochrane at welter in the 1940's (and also Larkin) and Giardello in the 1950's. However, he beat the #1 middle of the 1940's, LaMotta, and the #1 welter of the 1950's, Gavilan.

 

on Del Flanagan

I think he edges Tiger Jones as the most underrated non-champion. Flanagan defeated 8 world champions all the way from featherweight (Sandy Saddler) to light-heavyweight (Willie Pastrano)

Top wins
Sandy Saddler--I think the guy who will dominate the featherweights in the 1950's if you do the featherweights.
Beau Jack--probably in the top ten at lightweight in the 1940's
Kid Gavilan--#1 welterweight of the 1950's.
Johnny Bratton-#2 welterweight of the 1950's
Johnny Saxton--#4 welterweight of the 1950's
Virgil Akins--#5 welterweight of the 1950's
Ralph Dupas--#6 welterweight of the 1960's
Willie Pastrano--#6 heavyweight of the 1950's, and #6 light-heavyweight of the 1960's

So Flanagan defeated two top of the division in a decade fighters-Gavilan and Saddler.

Flanagan defeated fighters rated in your top ten all the way from featherweight (Saddler) to heavyweight (Pastrano), missing only middleweight, as Flanagan victim Tiger Jones, despite beating the top two and three of the top five middles (and the top welter) of the 1950's, did not end up in your top ten himself.

Besides his own victories over Saddler and Gavilan, Flanagan beat fighters who hold wins over Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, Carmen Basilio, D-ck Tiger, Ike Williams, Harold Johnson, Joey Maxim, Joey Giardello, Gene Fullmer, Flash Elorde, etc.

Flanagan and Tiger Jones are really interesting omissions from these top tens.

 

Look at that triptych of Robinson, Leonard, and Mayweather. Robinson looks like he's wearing driving gloves while Leonard and Mayweather have pillows on their hands. Also, Margarito! Ha.

 

Thanks again for doing the work to put this together.

My only comment is that The Ring didn't start these ratings until 1962, but Duilio Loi was the champion in 1960 and 1961 and so would have gotten 20 points in those years if The Ring had rated this division. That would put him at 30 points and at number three (assuming no one else got extra points. Perkins would, but he was #1 anyway.) Loi would certainly have finished in the top ten, and probably the top five in that case.

Loi joins the beating two top of their division for a decade guys, I think, as Carlos Ortiz will probably be the top lightweight of the 1960's, while Perkins was the top junior welterweight. Loi beat both in their primes and without a weight pull.

 

A trivia question--counting just the traditional divisions you've done to far,

can you name the man who defeated the top two men in his division (w/o looking it up)

Hint--It is not Ezzard Charles. (see post below)

I will post the answer after making my other posts.

 

Just on your point about totaling residual points from off decades.

It will make quite a bit of difference to some, w/o plowing through all this myself.

For example, Robinson I think will not only become the #1 welter, but he will get 20 extra points at middle (he was the #1 middle contender in 1949. He got 11 points at middle in the 1960's). Unless some other middle scores big on residual points, I think this might move him up to the #3 middle position. Robinson's final placing is going to be much more impressive with residual points at both welter and middle.

Another big change will be at light-heavy. Lesnevich edges Harold Johnson 108 to 104 w/o the residual scores. Johnson was rated #3 in 1949. That gives him 7 points and allows him to edge past Lesnevich into 2nd place among the light-heavies.

*That is why Ezzard Charles is not the answer to my trivia question. He beat the #1 Moore, but lost to the #2 Johnson, while also beating the #3 Lesnevich.

**I can understand telling an old, fat, and lazy poster to "go suck a grape" for making this succession, which entails a lot of work for you, but maybe doing a board which shows the top ten in each division including the residual points might be a good idea. At least for the 8 traditional divisions. I certainly would be interested. of course, I know we probably will be able to discern the top three or four out of the final top hundred, but that one will I assume include ratings from all divisions in one total, so might be misleading division by division.

 

One thing about these point totals I just noticed. Modern fighters have a big advantage because there are so many more divisions. For example, if a fighter begins his career as a teenager and a weight of 128, and finishes about fifteen years later at a weight of 158, he would have fought in three divisions in the old days, with 30 possible rating positions out there. Now there are six divisions between 128 and 158, and so 60 rating positions available. A guy who couldn't make the welter limit back in the day had no option but to go to middle. Now he only has to go to junior middle. So outstanding fighters who in the old days would have been in the same division no longer are.

My first question on this thread was the apparent decrease in volatility in the ratings. The extra divisions are a possible explanation.

 

Thanks again for all the hard work.

Comments

1930's---no surprises. Barney Ross does not finish high himself at either light or welter, but beat the top men (Canzoneri & McLarnin) in both divisions, showing his class.
1940's---Sammy Angott defeated both Williams & Montgomery, and also Willie Pep, almost certainly the top feather for this decade. He also gave Robinson tough fights.
1950's---Jimmy Carter was fairly erratic, losing his title to Lauro Salas in 1952, and Paddy DeMarco in 1954. He managed to get and win rematches before the year was out, keeping him at 10 for those years. The champion Salas doesn't make this list at all. Johnny Gonsalves is the big consistent surprise. Loi never getting a title shot is another head-scratcher.
1960's & 1970's--no surprises that Ortiz and Duran were dominant.
Overall--Stevie Johnston seems out of place this high. The other five of the top six seem right, although perhaps out of order.
Larry Boardman with wins over Sandy Saddler and Jimmy Carter joins the beating two best of division for a decade while never champion himself group.

 

Answer to trivia question--

Johnny Busso

Busso outpointed Carlos Ortiz in June of 1958. He lost a rematch in September, but defeated Joe Brown in November. So Busso defeated the two top point winners in the lightweight division and did it in one year. He got a title shot at Brown in 1959 and lost, and then lost several fights and was soon retired.

Busso ranked #4 in 1958, after ranking 10th in 1957. He fell to 10th in 1959. So his grand point total altogether is 6.

Busso might be the all-time top "flash-in-the-pan" but his best wins are very impressive. He didn't get Brown or Ortiz when finished or green. He handed Ortiz his first loss after 26 victories. Brown was the world champion. Ortiz ranked as the #2 contender that year.

They talk about 15 minutes of fame. Busso is a boxer who had 6 months of fame, I guess, before his career went down the drain.

 

My only comment is that The Ring not starting rating this division until 1962 cost Flash Elorde quite a bit. He was champion in 1960 & 1961 (like Duilio Loi in the Jr. Welterweights) and so at the least would have gotten 20 extra points. But I assume if he got a title shot in early 1960, he must have been a contender in 1959. If The Ring had started their ratings when the division became active, Elorde might have had a shot at being the #1 rated Jr. Lightweight, but at worst he would have totaled 70 points.

 

Like the heavyweights, there is no surprise at all at which fighters came out #1 and #2 on the all time featherweight listing. Pep and Saddler. Expected that.

On the beating three men who ranked at the top (other than themselves) of a traditional division for a decade, the total I come up with now is five (if anyone can add to this list, I would be interested)

1--Muhammad Ali (Moore, Patterson, Foreman)
2--Rocky Marciano (Louis, Charles, Moore)
3--Ezzard Charles (Louis, Moore, Lesnevich)
4--Joe Louis* (Schmeling, Mauriello, Lewis)
5--Sammy Angott (Miller, Pep, Williams-Montgomery)

*Joe Louis----I mis-remembered Rosembloom being #1 in the light-heavies in the 1930's, but it was John Henry Lewis by a nose, so Joe Louis also makes the beating three top of the decade fighters list.

Sammy Angott----another guy who seems to be underrated, with wins over Willie Pep, Freddie Miller, Bob Montgomery, and Ike Williams. He also beat Johnny Bratton, #2 at welter in the 1950's. Angott has sort of fallen through the historical cracks, but he really fought them all, and managed wins over quite a few good or great fighters.

Willie Pep----anticipating, Pep will be impressive on a couple of fronts. He will join the beating the best other than himself of three divisions in a decade list as Manuel Ortiz will be the #1 bantam of the 1940's. Pep has wins over Sandy Saddler, top feather of the 1950's, Chalky Wright, other than himself the top feather of the 1940's, and Ortiz.

Also, I wonder where Ortiz will finish in your all-time bantam list. He certainly is a candidate for #1 with 88 points in the 1940's alone. If Ortiz comes out #1, Pep will hold wins over the top feather other than himself, Saddler, and the top bantam.