Top 10 by Decade - Divisional Ranking Experiment

Here are the #1 & #2 in the top six traditional divisions with the residual points added by me. If I screwed up, well, but I would appreciate an expert doing these.

Heavyweight
1----Muhammad Ali
2----Joe Louis

Light-heavyweight
1----Archie Moore
2----Harold Johnson

Middleweight
1----Bernard Hopkins
2----Marvin Hagler

Welterweight
1----Sugar Ray Robinson
2----Jose Napoles

Lightweight
1----Carlos Ortiz
2----Joe Brown

Featherweight
1----Willie Pep
2----Sandy Saddler

Some things stand out
A----All are Americans except for Napoles. Ortiz was born in Puerto Rico, but grew up in NYC. This might well reflect bias against non-Americans in The Ring ratings. Monzon for example did not appear in the yearly ratings until the year he won the championship. Hard to buy he wasn't top ten a few years before that.
B----The old-timers do very well in these divisions. Thinking about it, having so many junior divisions probably helps a fighter's final grand totals across all divisions, but it might well hurt in these traditional divisions as the jump was so great fighters probably fought at weights they were uncomfortable making far longer than today.

 

If you think that Ring was biased in favor of Americans then why don't you dig a little and find some fighters that went undervalued in their rankings for years? Monzon is an interesting start. Some people think Duillo Loi didn't get his just deserts either. Maybe start by compiling a list of the best non-Americans to ever lace them up and see if Ring ever short changed them? Starting in the thirties obviously: Panama Al Brown, Benny Lynch, Jack Berg, Kid Chocolate. Forties: Marcel Cerdan. Fifties:Kid Gavilan, Pascual Perez Sixties: Eder Jofre, Carlos Ortiz, Fighting Harada, Nino Benvenuti, Vicente Saldivar, Ruben Olivares, Dick Tiger, Flash Elorde.

<-- Take careful note of the sixties, because something was happening here in the boxing world. Suddenly, a majority of the stars are non-American. In the sixties and seventies fully 4/5ths of the decade's top 10 are coming from other places. You don't see that pattern again until the 2000s.

But if you are interested in building a case for bias and shining some light on some of the lesser known fighters of history you are going to need more examples than just Monzon only being ranked once he was champ. Like Duilio Loi who beat Carlos Ortiz, I'd go looking for European fighters who had great records like his 115-3-8 or Gustav Sholz' 88-2-6. Part of me thinks that they only racked up such phenomenal records because they were facing domestic level competition and padding their records but every now and then one would come to America and beat a champ like Marcel Cerdan (117-4) did. Marcel Thil (148-22-13) might be another good candidate from France along with Ray Famechon (100-14-3). Sandro Mazzinghi (64-3) looks like another likely candidate from Italy. You get the picture.

 

I think The Ring was biased toward American-centered fighters in its ratings, not necessarily biased against non-American fighters. They probably simply didn't know what was happening in boxing rings in South America, for example. Not only Monzon, but Pascual Perez was not rated until the year he won the title. Both were 28, so I assume they were fairly polished fighters. I don't know if there is an American example of something like this--a man who was fairly experienced, had never been rated, but suddenly dominates his division for years.

On Rummy's lists here, Monzon & Perez might pay a price for not being American. Someone like Hagler was rated for years before becoming champion. Monzon and Perez not at all.

Duilio Loi--he was rated highly at lightweight for years, but didn't ever get a shot at that title. He ended up winning the Jr. Welter title from Ortiz, whom he beat two of three. Had he been American, he might well have been champion longer and have more historical rep.

Dave Sands--beat Bobo Olson twice, but it was Olson who got the shots at Robinson. I don't know how good Sands really was, but I think an American Sands would have gotten a title shot.

Kid Gavilan and D-ck Tiger--a bit different, as while they weren't American, they spent much of their careers in America. A foreign fighter "owned" by American interests could certainly get a shot.

Carlos Ortiz--my guess is he was an American citizen. Born in Puerto Rico, but raised in NYC. Ortiz spoke English w/o a trace of an accent.

Marcel Cerdan--hurt by WWII more than by anti-European bias. Actually, I don't know if being French would hurt him at all. Americans sort of have a warm spot for the French. Probably goes back to them saving our rear ends during the Revolutionary War. And to us they seem to have "class."

If you study the mixed Euro-Yank matches at middle in the 1930's, they seem to be pretty balanced. Thil was rated as champion, but the likes of Carmelo Cardel, Gustav Roth, Vilda Jaks, Eduard Tenet, etc. were I think on about the same plane as the best Americans.

On my list of the top two in each division, I think Carlos Monzon at middle and Roberto Duran at lightweight should have been one of the top two at their weights.

*just totally off subject, but it is interesting that the 1960's & 1970's were not only the era of international boxing, but when foreign movies were also extremely popular. Peplums, spy movies, westerns, Chinese martial arts flicks, etc., etc. It seemed that after I got off work and turned on the tube for a late night movie, it was almost always Euro made, although often "fronted" by an American star or two.

 

There's definitely a sociological reason for the explosion in the sixties. It might be financial, the way that the Olympic medals sort of track along economic lines. You need a certain amount of industrialization to create leisure, enough infrastructure to have big cities to support boxing gyms and give potential stars the access to world class training. That sort of thing. We tend to think of boxing as a working man's sport, but even a western working man would be considered rich in some countries.

 

I was just scanning George Benton's record against 60s middleweights. For some reason, it looked like the best ones were all five foot eight. I remember taking the measure of the champs from the divisions and middleweight average was about five foot ten in the era of same day weigh ins. But I didn't take a measure of the top ten each decade to see if they'd grown afterwards. With you mathematically figuring out the top ten for each decade, maybe that's something someone ought to look into. Because if the lightweights became welterweights and the welterweights became middleweights and so on, that makes it impossible to consider them correctly in head to head match ups. For instance, maybe today's middleweights would more properly be matched against old time light heavyweights.

 

I had some time today to run some numbers for middleweight. Here's what I got.
2010s 5’10.5”, 71”
1.Gennady Golovkin 5’10.5”, 70”
2.Sergio Martinez 5’10”, 73”
3.Daniel Geale 5’10”, 71”
4.Felix Sturm 5’11.5”, 73”
5.Saul Alvarez 5’8”, 70.5”
6.Daniel Jacobs 5’11.5”, 73”
7.Billy Joe Saunders 5’11”
8.Peter Quillin 6’1”, 71.5”
9.Matthew Macklin 5’10”, 71”
10.David Lemieux 5’9.5”, 70”
2000s 5’10.5”, 73.5”
1.Bernard Hopkins 6’1”, 75”
2.Felix Sturm 5’11.5”, 73”
3.Howard Eastman 5’11”, 74”
4.Jermain Taylor 5’11”, 74.5”
5.Arthur Abraham 5’9”, 72”
6.William Joppy 5’9”, 72.5”
7.Kelly Pavlik 6’2.5”, 75”
8.Winky Wright 5’10.5”, 72”
9.Sebastian Sylvester 5’7.5”
10.Robert Allen 5’9.5”, 73”
1990s 5’10.5”, 73.5”
1.Bernard Hopkins 6’1”, 75”
2.Julian Jackson 5’11.5”, 73”
3.Keith Holmes 6’2”, 78”
4.William Joppy 5’9”, 72.5”
5.Reggie Johnson 5’10”, 72”
6.Gerald McClellan 6’0”, 77”
7.Roy Jones Jr 5’11”, 74”
8.John David Jackson 5’9”, 71”
9.Mike McCallum 5’11.5”, 74.5”
10.Jorge Fernando Castro 5’8”, 69”
1980s 5’11”, 76”
1.Marvin Hagler 5’9.5”, 75”
2.Thomas Hearns 6’1”, 78”
3.Mustafa Hamsho 5’8”
4.Dwight Davison 6’1”
5.James Shuler 6’1”, 78”
6.Michael Nunn 6’1”, 77”
7.Sumbu Kalambay 5’9”, 72”
8.James Kinchen 5’9.5”
9.Herol Graham 5’11.5”, 77”
10.Iran Barkley 6’1”, 74”
1970s 5’9”, 72”
1.Carlos Monzon 5’11.5”, 76”
2.Rodrigo Valdez 5’9.5”, 69”
3.Vito Antuofermo 5’7.5”, 69”
4.Bennie Briscoe 5’8”, 71”
5.Emile Griffith 5’7.5”, 72”
6.Marvin Hagler 5’9.5”, 75”
7.Mike Colbert
8.Gratien Tonna 5’9.5”
9.Tony Mundine 5’10”, 73.5”
10.Ronnie Harris 5’10”
1960s 5’9”, 72”
1.Dick Tiger 5’8”, 71”
2.Nino Benvenuti 5’11”, 75”
3.Joey Giardello 5’10”
4.Sandro Mazzinghi 5’8”, 72.5”
5.Gene Fullmer 5’8”, 69”
6.Emile Griffith 5’7.5”, 72”
7.Joey Archer 5’10”, 73”
8.Paul Pender 5’10”, 72”
9.Luis Manuel Rodriguez 5’8”, 74”
10.Luis Folledo
1950s 5’9”, 71.5”
1.Sugar Ray Robinson 5’11”, 72.5”
2.Joey Giardello 5’10”
3.Bobo Olson 5’10.5”, 70”
4.Gene Fullmer 5’8”, 69”
5.Charles Humez 5’9”, 71”
6.Rocky Castellani 5’10”
7.Randy Turpin 5’9.5”, 74.5”
8.Ellsworth Webb 5’9.5”
9.Carmen Basilio 5’6.5”
10.Holly Mims 5’7”
1940s 5’9”, 70”
1.Tony Zale 5’7.5”, 69”
2.Jake LaMotta 5’8”, 67”
3.Steve Belloise 5’8”
4.Holman Williams 5’10.5”, 71”
5.Marcel Cerdan 5’8”
6.Charley Burley 5’9”, 75”
7.Rocky Graziano 5’7”, 68.5”
8.Bert Lytell 5’9”
9.Georgie Abrams 5’9”
10.Jose Basora 6’0”
1930s 5’9”, 71”
1.Marcel Thil 5’8”, 68.5”
2.Vince Dundee 5’8”, 71”
3.Teddy Yarosz 5’10”, 72.5”
4.Freddie Steele 5’10, 72”
5.Dave Shade 5’8”, 71”
6.Fred Apostoli 5’9.5”, 70”
7.Ken Overlin 5’9”, 70”
8.Al Hostak 5’9.5”, 73”
9.Frank Battaglia 5’9”
10.Ben Jeby 5’10”, 70”
Looks like guys were about 5'9, 71" before the 80s and afterward they were about 5'10.5", 73".

 

Decided to do Welterweight too. About 5'8", 70" same day weigh in era, 5'9", 71" modern era, but this decade is actually the shortest since the 1930s. 5'9", 71" were the size and reach of same day middleweights, thus confirming what we mostly suspected all along. If you want to do H2H comparisons between a pre 80s fighter and a post 80s fighter the math says you need to either drop or carry two divisions.
Welterweights
1930s 5’7.5”, 69”
1.Jimmy McLarnin 5’6”, 67”
2.Ceferino Garcia 5’6”, 70”
3.Barney Ross 5’7”, 67”
4.Young Corbett III 5’7.5”
5.Jackie Fields 5’7.5”, 69”
6.Bep van Klaveren 5’8”
7.Jack Carroll 5’10.5”, 72”
8.Fritzie Zivic 5’10”, 71”
9.Kid Azteca 5’8”
10.Henry Armstrong 5’5.5”, 67”
1940s 5’8”, 70”
1.Sugar Ray Robinson 5’11”, 72.5”
2.Freddie Cochrane 5’7.5”
3.Tippy Larkin 5’7”, 71”
4.Henry Armstrong 5’5.5”, 67”
5.Fritzie Zivic 5’10”, 71”
6.Tommy Bell 5’7”
7.Johnny Greco 5’5.5”, 66”
8.Bernard Docusen 5’10.5”
9.Kid Gavilan 5’10.5”, 71”
10.Jackie Wilson
1950s 5’8”, 70”
1.Kid Gavilan 5’10.5”, 71”
2.Johnny Bratton 5’10”
3.Carmen Basilio 5’6.5”
4.Johnny Saxton 5’9”, 71”
5.Billy Graham 5’7”, 68”
6.Virgil Akins 5’9”, 73”
7.Vince Martinez 5’9”, 69.5”
8.Tony DeMarco 5’5”
9.Isaac Logart 5’7”
10.Don Jordan 5’9”, 70”
1960s 5’8”, 72”
1.Luis Manuel Rodriguez 5’8”, 74”
2.Emile Griffith 5’7.5”, 72”
3.Curtis Cokes 5’8”, 73”
4.Brian Curvis
5.Manuel Gonzalez
6.Ralph Dupas 5’8”, 68”
7.Willie Ludick 5’9”
8.Ernie Lopez 5’8”
9.Jose Napoles 5’7.5”, 72”
10.Benny Paret 5’7.5”
1970s 5’8”, 70”
1.Jose Napoles 5’7.5”, 72"
2.Clyde Gray 5’6.5”, 67”
3.Pipino Cuevas 5’8”, 70”
4.Hedgemon Lewis 5’8”
5.Angel Espada 5’9”
6.Carlos Palomino 5’8.5”, 70”
7.John H. Stracey 5’7.5”, 70”
8.Pete Ranzany 5’10.5”, 74”
9.Armando Muniz 5’6”, 68.5”
10.Billy Backus 5’7”, 69”
1980s 5’10.5, 72”
1.Marlon Starling 5’8”, 73”
2.Milton McRory 6’0”, 75”
3.Donald Curry 5’9.5”, 72”
4.Simon Brown 5’9.5”, 71”
5.Maurice Blocker 6’2”
6.Lloyd Honeyghan 5’8”, 69”
7.Mark Breland 6’2”
8.Tommy Ayers
9.Colin Jones
10.Sugar Ray Leonard 5’10”, 74”
1990s 5’9”, 71”
1.Felix Trinidad 5’11”, 72.5”
2.Pernell Whitaker 5’6”, 69”
3.Ike Quartey 5’7.5”, 71”
4.James McGirt 5’6.5”, 70”
5.Crisanto Espana 5’10”
6.Oba Carr 5’9.5”, 72”
7.Oscar De La Hoya 5’10.5”, 73”
8.Maurice Blocker 6’2”
9.Yory Boy Campas 5’7.5”, 68”
10.Wilfredo Rivera 5’11”, 72”
2000s 5’9”, 71”
1.Antonio Margarito 5’11”, 73”
2.Shane Mosley 5’8.5”, 71”
3.Thomas Damgaard 5’8.5”, 68.5”
4.Vernon Forrest 6’0”, 73”
5.Zab Judah 5’7.5”, 72”
6.Cory Spinks 5’9.5”, 71”
7.Miguel Cotto 5’7”, 67”
8.Floyd Mayweather Jr 5’8”, 72”
9.Andrew Lewis 5’8”, 72”
10.Luis Collazo 5’9”, 72”
2010s 5’7.5”, 69”
1.Manny Pacquiao 5’5.5”, 67”
2.Kell Brook 5’9”, 69”
3.Floyd Mayweather Jr 5’8”, 72”
4.Timothy Bradley 5’6”, 69”
5.Keith Thurman 5’7.5”, 69”
6.Shawn Porter 5’7”, 69.5”
7.Juan Manuel Marquez 5’7”, 67”
8.Amir Khan 5’8.5”, 71”
9.Andre Berto 5’6.5”, 68.5”
10. Robert Guerrero 5’9”, 71”

 

Interesting that the same day weigh-in fighters of the 80s are significantly taller and longer than today’s welterweights.

 

Same with middleweights. I don’t think the change in height and reach among top 80s fighters can be explained by the shift to day-before weigh-ins, as same day weighins weren't fully phased out until the early 90s.

 

Did lightweight today. Pre-80s average = 5'7", 68" post 80s 5'8", 69"
Lightweight
1930 5’6” 67”
1.Tony Canzoneri 5’4”, 65”
2.Lou Ambers 5’4.5”, 70”
3.Wesley Ramey 5’4”, 67”
4.Pedro Montanez 5’5”, 68”
5.Barney Ross 5’7”, 67”
6.Davey Day 5’9”
7.Eddie Cool 5’8”, 70”
8.Sammy Fuller 5’3.5”, 62”
9.Frankie Klick 5’5”, 67”
10.Billy Petrolle 5’7”, 70”
1940 5’7”, 69.5”
1.Bob Montgomery 5’7.5”, 71”
2.Ike Williams 5’9”, 68”
3.Beau Jack 5’6”, 68.5”
4.Enrique Bolanos 5’8”, 73”
5.Sammy Angott 5’7.5”, 70”
6.Willie Joyce 5’6”
7.Allie Stolz 5’6.5”, 68.5”
8.Freddie Dawson 5’6”, 68.5”
9.Dave Castilloux 5’6.5”
10.Maxie Docusen 5’6”
1950 5’7”, 68”
1.Jimmy Carter 5’6”, 68”
2.Joe Brown 5’7.5”, 68”
3.Duilio Loi 5’4.5”, 69”
4.Johnny Gonsalves 5’10”
5.Wallace Smith 5’6.5”, 68”
6.Ralph Dupas 5’8”, 68”
7.Kenny Lane 5’5”, 65”
8.Paddy Demarco 5’6”, 70”
9.Paolo Rosi 5’7.5”
10.Carlos Ortiz 5’7”, 70”
1960 5’7”, 68”
1.Carlos Ortiz 5’7”, 70”
2.Ismael Laguna 5’9, 68”
3.Carlos Hernandez
4.Dave Charnley 5’6”, 67”
5.Carlos Teo Cruz 5’6.5”, 68”
6.Joe Brown 5’7.5”, 68”
7.Bunny Grant 5’7”, 69”
8.Niccolino Locche 5’6”
9.Frankie Narvaez 5’3.5”
10.Pedro Carrasco 5’9”
1970 5’7”, 68.5”
1.Roberto Duran 5’7”, 66”
2.Ken Buchanan 5’7.5”, 70”
3.Esteban De Jesus 5’4.5”, 67”
4.Ray Lampkin
5.Vilomar Fernandez
6.Pedro Carrasco 5’9”
7.Vicente Saldivar 5’3”
8.Ismael Laguna 5’9”, 68”
9.Angel Mayoral
10.Edwin Viruet 5’8”, 71”
1980 5’7”, 68.5”
1.Edwin Rosario 5’6”, 66.5”
2.Jose Luis Ramirez 5’6.5”, 64”
3.Livingstone Bramble 5’8”, 74”
4.Pernell Whitaker 5’6”, 69”
5.Alexis Arguello 5’10”, 72”
6.Howard Davis Jr 5’8”, 72.5”
7.Greg Haugen 5’6”, 67”
8.Aaron Pryor 5’6”, 69”
9.Ray Mancini 5’4.5”, 65”
10.Tyrone Crawley 5’8”
1990 5’8” 70”
1.Oruzbek Nazarov 5’7.5”, 71”
2.Stevie Johnston 5’4.5”, 68.5”
3.Miguel Angel Gonzalez 5’8.5”, 68”
4.Freddie Pendleton 5’8”, 72”
5.Shane Mosley 5’8.5”, 71”
6.Jean-Baptiste Mendy 5’9.5”
7.Philip Holiday 5’6”, 68”
8.Rafael Ruelas 5’11”, 71”
9.Tracy Spann 5’9”
10.Pernell Whitaker 5’6”, 69”
2000 5’7.5”, 69”
1.Jose Luis Castillo 5’7.5”, 69”
2.Joel Casamayor 5’7”, 69”
3.Juan Diaz 5’6”, 67”
4.Julio Diaz 5’8”, 68”
5.Stevie Johnston 5’4.5”, 68.5”
6.Juan Lazcano 5’9”, 72”
7.Paul Spadafora 5’9”, 69”
8.Floyd Mayweather Jr. 5’8”, 72”
9.Juan Manuel Marquez 5’7”, 67”
10.Diego Corrales 5’10.5”, 70”
2010 5’8”, 69”
1.Jorge Linares 5’8”, 69”
2.Miguel Vazquez 5’10”, 72”
3.Sharif Bogere 5’6.5”, 68”
4.Richard Abril 5’9”, 72”
5.Juan Manuel Marquez 5’7”, 67”
6.Antonio DeMarco 5’10”, 71”
7.Adrien Broner 5’6”, 69”
8.Dejan Zlaticanin 5’4”, 65”
9.Ricky Burns 5’10”, 70”
10.Raymundo Beltran 5’8”, 68”

 

Oh, I totally agree. Must be just a coincidence. But it's interesting that the change happened around the same time and now lightweights are as big as welterweights used to be and welterweights are as big as middleweights used to be, etc. I wonder what the explanation for that could be? I'm stumped.

 

Are you being sarcastic? According to your own stats, top middleweights and welterweights in the 80s both shot up in height and reach several years before the switch to same-day weigh ins. I don't know how to explain the changes in height/reach but it damn sure seems like the cause must be something other than the later switch to day-before weigh-ins. Wouldn't you agree?

Maybe trainers and fight people had begun to appreciate the value of height and reach advantages more? These aren't really big swings in size.

BTW, a lot of the most notorious weight-drainers (Canelo, Clottey, Gatti, Hatton) weren't particularly tall for their divisions.