Based on head to head ability 1. Sonny Liston 2. Floyd Patterson 3. Cassius Clay 4. Ingemar Johansson 5. Archie Moore 6. Harold Johnson 7. Zora Folley 8. Eddie Machen 9. Cleveland Williams 10. Nino Valdes Hm: Mike Dejohn, Hurricane Jackson I think those are the clear cut 10 best fighters..they have skills speed power athleticism, none of them had manufactured records from being overprotected...
Clay Liston Patterson Moore Harold Johnson Ingo Eddie Machen Nino Valdes Cleveland Williams Hurricane Jackson
So are you asking for the best 10 fighters from this period, or the best H2H? It's harder to rate H2H over a specific period of time rather than prime for prime, but I can tell you now that Valdes at a ripe old age of 33 at the start of this period does not merit a spot in the top 10 for either.
Not to split hairs here, but he had just turned 31 at the start of this period and was still enjoying solid wins over **** Richardson, Joe Erskine, Pat McMurtry, Brian London, Johnny Holman, Johnny Summerlin and Mike DeJohn (twice). I think where he's rated is fine and I really think SuzieQ's list is pretty well thought out. Just nailing their talents for that specific era. Well done.
1956 31 year ol Nino valdes(not 33) deserves a spot in this list. Scar tissue explained why with thorough ****ysis .. Take note Valdes was 6 foot 3 215lb with a 79" reach. He had good punching power boxing ability and a good left jab in an era of small heavyweights
ok 31 my bad, got my dates twisted. I personally feel his loses over this period were more telling, but I'm sure more of you guys know more about the era than me. I have struggled to find another heavyweight that I'd replace Valdes with in all fairness.
Well, Ali's position at #3 indicates to me you are going only on what happened between 1956 and 1962. On that basis-- *Alex Miteff should replace Nino Valdes Common opponents-- Archie McBride-----------Miteff W-10--Valdes L-8, W-10 John Holman-------------Miteff KO-9---Valdes W-10 Mike DeJohn-------------Miteff KO by 1---Valdes W 10, W 10 (SD's) Harold Carter-------------Miteff KO 2----Valdes KO 9 Zora Folley----------------Miteff L 10-----Valdes L 10 Wayne Bethea------------Miteff W UD 10----Valdes W SD 10 Eddie Machen-------------Miteff L 10-------Valdes L 10, KO by 8 Alonzo Johnson-----------Miteff W 10, W 10---Valdes L 10 Totals Miteff 6 wins--3 losses--2 KO's--1 KO by Valdes 6 wins--5 losses--1 KO--1 KO by Valdes did much better against DeJohn. Miteff did much better against Alonzo Johnson. If anyone wants to take McBride out of this mix, okay. It wouldn't make much difference. Valdes would drop to 5-4. Miteff to 5-3. Head to head--had they never fought Valdes would win the head to head from the guys into these things, as he was taller and heavier and had a longer reach and was more "athletic"--we all know the veiled meaning of that. They did fight in the real world, though, and Miteff won, which for me gives him a decisive edge over Valdes if evaluated only from 1956 on. *I was for my own interest figuring out the top ten heavyweights over a decade span--I am indecisive about when to begin and end the decades I want to judge-but I did do the 1946 to 1955 period and Valdes made my top ten for that period. Not from 1956 on, though.
Jackson is another guy whose best days were prior to 1956. He did defeat Baker twice, but lots of guys were beating Baker from this point on--and the fights I understand were controversial. By 1957 after the losses to Patterson and Machen, he was banned by the NYSAC because of his inept showings, and by 1960 was losing to Howard King and Hans Kalbfell. I think Roy Harris would be much more deserving of this position with his wins over Baker, Pastrano, Besmanoff, and Powell and record of never losing to anyone who wasn't at the time or within a year a top five heavyweight. The top 8 positions are pretty much un-arguable. Williams makes a lot of sense at number 9. I would put Henry Cooper at #10, and give the HM's to Harris and Miteff.
Good arguement for Miteff. Here's my problem...if you want to rank miteff over Valdes, fine. But then you have to ask yourself how miteff can be ranked above Mike Dejohn? Dejohn brutally knocked miteff out in 1 round, a very powerful result. Then to make matters worse for miteff, Dejohn knocked out billy hunter. Hunter twice beat Alex miteff. This is not a good result for miteff. so I look at Dejohn miteff and Valdes as a revolving triangle. If you compare the records against each other Valdes has the best record going 2-1 with two victories against Dejohn. Miteff has the worst loss amongst the 3, a one round knockout defeat. Lastly I think Valdes in 1956 and closer to his peak may have been better on his best night than Dejohn and Miteff who both fought Valdes while he was in a slight decline. Good points though
Bob Baker beat John Holman in 1956, whom you claimed was the most logical contender in 1956. Jackson then beat Baker in a heavyweight eliminater. This is a good win. Harris beat baker after he was coming off of wide decision losses to harold carter and the very unimpressive Willie besmanoff. That diminishes the win quite a bit Jackson also took floyd 12 rounds in a split decision loss, a better result than any heavyweight managed against Floyd I think jackson in 1956 as a head to head fighter was top 10 material Henry Cooper, ok What's your case for Harris above nino Valdes? Harris put on very unimpressive performances against liston and Floyd. I mean he looked downright awful. He also got knocked out by Bob cleroux twice. Why should Harris be placed over cleroux when he got dominated by him twice? In fact Bob cleroux went 3-0 with 3 knockouts against miteff and Harris your two honorable mentions. With this statistic, how can you possibly make a case for miteff and Harris over cleroux ? Then you have to realize mike de john beat cleroux and knocked out miteff. Valdes won twice over Dejohn
Holman "who you claimed was the most logical contender" The article on the internet claimed the NBA listed him as the "most outstanding" contender in April, 1956. (I have no way of knowing if this is accurate, but coming off a KO of Satterfield who had beaten Baker and Valdes, it is reasonable. Jackson had just lost to Jimmy Slade.) "very unimpressive Willi Besmanoff" who had wins over Miteff and DeJohn. "Cleroux" I forgot about him. He should be rated over Harris. "What's your case for Harris above Valdes" Besides a more consistent overall record, common opponents-- Bob Baker-- Harris--won 10 Valdes--lost 10, lost 10 Charlie Powell Harris--won 10 Valdes--KO by 8 Liston Harris--KO by 1 Valdes--KO by 3 One could make a case for Valdes doing better than Harris against Liston, but Besmanoff (who you say is very unimpressive) lasted 7. And clearly Valdes did not do as well as Harris against Baker and Powell, and Harris fought Powell directly after Powell KO'd Valdes. Harris lost only to fighters who were champions or made it into the top five, it was Valdes who lost to lesser fighters like Alonzo Johnson. So right now I would give Cleroux and Harris the two honorable mention spots. *As I said on another thread, I don't see exactly why the Liston KO of Harris is so embarrassing. Harris was hit by a perfect left hook but got up and kept getting up. He lasted longer than Patterson in either fight and didn't take the count. The ref stopped the fight. As for Patterson, why was this so bad. He knocked the champion down and lasted twelve until his corner stopped it because of a cut. Yeah, he was overmatched, but who did all that much better in Floyd's championship matches other than Liston & Johansson? Moore? Jackson in his championship fight? London? Or the post championship guys like Machen? Cooper?
Edward Harris fought a past his prime Bob baker Valdes fought a prime Bob baker Surely you have to take this into context. Baker was finished as a fighter by 1957. I don't think Harris deserves much credit for this victory Charlie Powell fought a 34 year old Valdes in 59, his best days long behind him. Again this should be taken into context when comparing common opponents
"his best days long behind him" I think they were behind him by 1956. "Powell" This was one guy he didn't have size and reach on.
