Top 10 Heavyweights 1700-1880?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BitPlayerVesti, May 5, 2018.


  1. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Dates rough, basically after Figg and before Sullivan

    I had a go in another thread at a preliminary list.

    1. Tom King
    2. Jem Mace
    3. Jem Belcher
    4. John Jackson
    5. Daniel Mendoza
    6. Tom Molyneux
    7. Tom Cribb
    8. John C. Heenan
    9. Jack Broughton
    10. Tom Hyer

    Some of you might have some better ideas. This was just to get things started.
     
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I would say that Tom King is a bit too high. He was usually rated lower than Mace, despite going 1-1 against him. I think that Tom Cribb is a bit too low, because many considered him to be the GOAT. I also think that Henry Pearce should be on the list somewhere. Other than that, you have broadly identified the stronger candidates.
     
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  3. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Maybe right with Pearce, I'll need to look into him more.

    I was pretty unsure of the order for Jackson to Cribb, I felt they were all pretty close, and swapped them about a bit.

    As for Tom King, I get what you mean, I'll tell you my reasoning. From the report of the fight with Mace I think he was winning, but fell and cracked his head, and couldn't continue, he won the rematch too, he also got a good win over Heenan, arguably making him a world champion.
     
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    In the first Mace King fight King was winning when he was stopped, and in the second fight Mace seems to have been winning when he was stopped. Obviously there was considerable interest in a rubber match, but it never came off for various reasons.

    As with gloved boxing, people seem to have formed the impression that some eras were strong, and that others were weak.

    The first two decades of the 19th century, where you have Belcher, Pearce, and Cribb, were seen as a golden era in subsequent decades.

    The mid decades of the 19th century were seen by many as a weak era, with the period from Sayers to Mace being seen as a strong era, which produced strong champions and contenders.
     
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Were black men allowed to fight in the 1700s?
     
  6. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I'll look for an account of the second, that'll probably add something.

    Edit: I saw a reference to him being losing but landing some solid shots for the KO, which I would say is different to falling and cracking his head. Though I think the conditions favoured King as the rain made it hard for Mace to move.

    Very true about eras.

    Pearce is hard to rate just due to lack of opponents. I'll maybe look for Belcher's fights with him and and Cribb.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  7. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    In the 1700's it was nearly all British fighters. There seems to have been a few others in europe like the Venicean Gondolier and Monsieur Petit, but I don't know of any references to them outside of once they came to England.

    Be a good thing to look into for someone from other countries, I think there is a real national bias in boxing history.

    Molyneux was black, actually a freed slave honestly his story is one that's worth hearing.
     
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  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think that the color line is a largely American phenomenon.

    In 19th century Britain, it never seems to have been questioned, that a talented black fighter should get a title shot!
     
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I think so.

    The most famous case was Tom Molineaux, a slave in the early 1800's who won his freedom in a boxing match.

    Later on Molineaux fought Tom Cribb, the British champion, essentially the heavyweight champion in boxing. The first fight was halted. Tom Cribb won the re-match.

    Here's something from the web:

    [url]https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/artsfilmtv/tom-molineaux-the-slave-who-boxed-his-way-to-freedom-before-dying-destitute-in-ireland-460967.html[/url]
     
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  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Interesting
     
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I have heard of molineaux ...thanks for the info
     
  12. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    There defenitely was massive bias against they actually winning though. They pretty much wouldn't let Molyneux win in the first fight.

    It's been suggested the bias was more nationalist than racist. They wouldn't let an American win something so English.
     
  13. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Heenan didn't win a single prize fight in his career.
     
  14. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I think he did, they just aren't recorded.

    He was injured in the Morrissey one, and it seems he was treated unfairly against Sayers.
     
  15. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1858-10-30 New York Clipper (page 222)
    The Benicia Boy, who, during his residence in California for some four or five years past, was employed in some extensive engine works, had acquired considerable local celebrity as an active and powerful boxer, and, in some private bar-room turns up, had proved uniformly successful in coming off the victor.
    ...
    John C. Heenan is a native of this country, having first saw the light in the city of West Troy, in the State of New York, and his age at the present time is 25 years. He has never before appeared in the prize ring, his present essay being his debut for pugilistic honors in the fistic arena.

    What injury do you mean?

    Unfair? Perhaps, in the preparation, but not during the fight itself, the way I see it. And had the fight continued without police interruption, Heenan would become completely blind in very short time (as he actually did after the fight had been stopped).
     
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