Top 10 HW fighters from 1905-1915

Interesting read:good

 

This was a title fight with a no-decision, but the Draw is the news decision based on numerous sources.

The ref said he felt O'Brien was the better by a shade. Newspapers reports are split, though primary sources say O'Brien was the better.

So the heavyweight Champion of the world in his absolute prime was outboxed despite having a 42-pound advantage vs a boxer not known at all for power. Where's this vaunted defense?

Weights:

Johnson 205
O'Brien 162.5


News Reports:

The New York Sun, Wilkes-Barre Times Leader, and Washington Herald had O'Brien winning three rounds, with two even and the fifth round to Johnson.

The Trenton Times reported that the referee stated that he thought O'Brien was the winner by a shade.

The Stevens Point Daily Journal reported: "Jack Johnson, the big colored heavyweight champion, failed to win over Jack O'Brien, the Philadelphia light heavyweight, in a six-round bout. The fight was even and the consensus of opinion was that it should have been a draw, had a decision been permissible. O'Brien's marvelously fast footwork and his superior blocking saved him from damage in several close mixes, and three times he was forced to his knees by the great strength and weight of Johnson in the clinches. It was a fast fight, O'Brien doing the greater part of the leading. Johnson was slow on his feet, and appeared not to be in the best condition. Repeatedly, the champion rushed his smaller antagonist, but seldom landed effectively. A right-hand counter in the fifth round cut O'Brien's right eye, and this was the sum total of the damage done in the six rounds. Johnson had nothing to say after the bout except that he thought he had the better of it. O'Brien was enthusiastic over his showing. He said he had accepted a proposal to meet Al Kaufman in San Francisco in the near future."

 

How do you figure Johnson won the series with Clark, they were 1-1-1 and during the relevant period 190515 Clark was on top 1-0-1.
Battling Jim had 22 defeats in 66 fights during the period that Clark had four losses in 110! Clark had wins over three of his conquerors, Wuest, Sam Langford and Jeannette.
Jim Johnson lost all his series' with McVea, Jeannette, Wills, Langford and Clarke during the pre-1916 period while only McVea had a winning series over Jeff in the relevant time-frame.
Furthermore, Clarke beat the likes of Levinsky, Maher and Luther McCarty from outside the top black fighters-plus Norfolk, Johnson's best win; a depressed Arthur Pelkey and then there is the draw with the injured, out-of-condition, Jack Johnson.
If you want to look at losses, Clark lost to Harry Wuest but avenged it, while Alf Langford, an aging Porky Flynn, Curran, Storbeck, Fritts all pulled the trick on Battling Jim, no matter how you square it, Clark must come out on top.

 

How many times has this subject been addressed here?
I could post alternative reports crediting Johnson with a win, reports like the local Philly paper below ,[O Brien's home town paper].
The Philadelphia Inquirer, which scored the bout for Johnson, reported: "Three or four times during the mix-ups, O'Brien was roughed to the floor, and once he got tangled in the ropes."
But it just sidetracks the thread further,you're like a virus ,you contaminate every thread you post on .
Get a life and stop f*cking this forum up with your obsessive hatred of a man whose been dead, for 70 years!.
Have some respect for other posters.
You're beyond pathetic!

 

A black hwt champion getting a draw in those days against a white opponent means the black champion won.

 

Not necessarily.

There were consequences for rendering an unjust decision, even against a black opponent.

The people who had bet money on them were predominantly white.

 

The fight was in O Brien's home town,Philadelphia.
Johnson knew O Brien could not stop him and as it was a no dec 6 rounder came in out of shape , he trained for a fortnight and then not strenuously , it's on record he was out partying the night before.
Mendoza is just a hater , his prerogative as long as he doesn't pollute threads like this one with his nonsense.

in his haste to disparage Johnson, Mendoza states Johnson came in at a good weight,obviously unaware that neither man weighed in ,they just gave their weights as they saw fit.

"Johnson gave his weight as 205/206lbs,but most thought he weighed a lot more,.He unquestionably was carrying too much weight, but looked to be in pretty good form nevertheless".

" OBrien claimed to weigh 162.5lbs although he was closer to170lbs.He looked as finely trained as a race horse".
The day before the fight members of the press commented ,
"O Brien was by far the better trained of the two.He had trained hard and consistently and looked good.
Conversely Johnson appeared to have accepted too many invitations to banquets to be in the be in the best shape.
Since his return from Australia theatrical work had taken up most of his time, and he had been living an easy life."

"He was terribly fat on leaving New York, and it would take a good to months to get it off.Two weeks work is only a start when a man is fat and out of shape."
Adam Pollack gives an excellent account of it and all Johnson's fights ,in his 2 volumes of biography on him.
Johnson was overweight,soft ,and blew like a
Coincidentally Jim Jeffries was publicly weighed in Chicago on the same day,[May 18th 1909], Jeffries scaled 243lbs.
NB This was 14 months before his fight with Johnson.

Johnson knocked O Brien down in the 5th round and bloodied and marked up both his eyes,
Johnson finished the fight unmarked.
The Philadelphia Inquirer, and the Philadelphia Record , the New York World, the New York Journal , all gave their verdicts to Johnson. Johnson said, he thought he won the fight, but if folks disagreed with him ,and the demand was sufficient he was willing to take O Brien on over a longer fight.
The Philadelphia record said there would be no local demand for a rematch between Johnson and O Brien.
" Philadelphia would hardly stand for another meeting, for the reason that the local fight followers now know that Johnson is entirely too big for O Brien,and that he,in condition and so disposed should beat O Brien in short order.
This is not to intimate that Johnson faked on Wednesday night for there was no indication that such was the case, but he surely did not try his best,in every round.
Just why he loafed Johnson knows better than anyone else."

Jim Jeffries in Chicago , learning the result said,"The result of the fight is no surprise to me,though I expected Johnson would do better.O Brein is a flashy man in a six round fight and would keep almost anyone off for that length of time."

I hope this puts this no decision six rounder in perspective and pre-empts any more blatant derogatory attempts from Mendoza,it is surely time to put this fight to bed.
Apologies for meandering.

Let's get back to the thread!

 

I don't have Adam's volume 2 of Johnson, which newspapers did he list for Johnson-O'Brien? Using secondary sources I know Philadelphia Public Ledger, Philadelphia Press, Philadelphia Evening Bulletin, Associated Press, United Press scored it a draw. Bob Edgren and Igoe gave decision to O'Brien.

 

Looking up my notes, Val Loan (NY American) had it a draw, Philadelphia North American and NY Morning Telegraph scored for O'Brien.

 

Kid McCoy's rankings of heavyweights in October 1920:

1920-10-18 Akron Evening Times (Akron, OH) (page 11)
1. Jack Dempsey
2. Harry Wills.
3. Jess Willard.
4. Fred Fulton.
5. Georges Carpentier.
6. Bill Brennan.
7. Bartley Madden.
8. Billy Miske.
9. Bob Martin.
10. Gene Tunney.
11. Willie Meehan.
12. Battling Levinsky.
13. Charlie Weinert.
14. Frank Moran.
15. Tom Cowler.
16. Martin Burke.
17. Joe Beckett.
18. Bob Roper.
19. Gunboat Smith.
20. Al Reich.

 

O Brien was an Irish American from Philadelphia, the fight was in Philadelphia and the referee ,Jack McGuigan was an Irish American from -------- Philadelphia . lol

 

EXCELLENT ARTICLE! Moving this to my archives as its something I have not read before.

Alfred Reed Cratty was born in 1862 and died in 1954, so he's one of the few lived through the time and maybe saw them all.

" Note the All American team of 40 years plus: No. 1, James J. Jeffries; No. 2, John L. Sullivan; No. 3, J. Art Johnson; No. 4, Jack Dempsey; No. 5, Bob Fitzsimmons; No. 6, Peter Jackson; No. 7, Jess Willard; No. 8, Frank Paddy Slavin; No. 9, Fred Fulton; No. 10, Gus Ruhlin; No. 11, Peter Maher; No. 12, Tom Sharkey; No. 13, Sam Langford; No. 14, Luther McCarthy; No. 15, Jim Corbett; No. 16, Charley Mitchell; No. 17, Joe Choynski; No. 18, Joe Goddard; No. 19, Sam McVey; No. 20, Joe Jeannette. "

My comments.

I think #1-6 has the right names, but you can argue a bit on the order. Sullivan might have been #2, but his resume is too weak for my liking.

I think Slavin is underrated, but #9?

Maher is way too high.

Langford is too low, he beat better prime competition than most.

I think a bit less of Jeannette and Mcvey these days, but they were better than Mitchell. Corbett is also too low.

 

Spoken from perhaps the best-researched poster here. I bet Mcvey who has Adam's book won't list Adam's sources that said O'Brien won. Johnson in and out of the ring is his idol.

Whether O'Brien ( 160 pounds with little power ) , who by that time was past his best, out weighted by 40+ pounds won by a small margin, drew, or lost by a small margin is not the main point. This was prime Jack Johnson, and when faced with a guy with skills win my opinion showed up big time.

Any logical boxing person should question Johnson's defense vs a good jabber, and seriously wonder what if he was in there with a bigger man with similar skills.

 

Perry,

What you are saying does not make much sense. There was only 1 African American heavyweight champion in those days. It was Johnson.

As champion, Johnson had two draws, one vs O'Brien, the other vs Jim Battling Johnson.

That's the lone draw from a black heavyweight champion, maybe in the history of the ring until Lewis vs Holyfield!

O'Brien was the only draw, news or otherwise vs. any linear African American champion.

 

O Brien did not weigh 160lbs when he fought Johnson. I posted lots of newspaper articles who gave the fight to Johnson you put up a blurb from Boxrec .I don't have idols my favourite heavyweights are Dempsey and Ali.I don't like Johnsons style I just like correcting your lies and its a good job I am retired because its a full time job!lol

I don't give a good f*ck what you think about anything because you have the reasoning power of a piece of dog sh*t.lol