Top 10, under the forgotten Criteria

Boilermaker · Feb 22, 2010

We often talk about film, resume, head to head etc. But, who would be the top 10 fighters where a fighter can only be ranked as good as the very best fighter (on the day they fought them), that he beat.

At a quick glance, this is how i see it.

1. Joe Frazier - His Win over Muhammed Ali, even allowing for the 3 year hiatus was probably the best fighter that was ever beaten.

2. Max Schmelling - Louis was pre prime and partying, but how many other fighters would have still scored thewin, and by KO too.

3. Muhammed Ali - He had heat, ropes and other conditions on his side, but lets be honest, there is every chance that no other fighter alive could beat the man he beat.

4. Bill Farnan - Out of left field and maybe a little controversial, but one of my favourites. Bill beat a top 20 All time Great (arguably higher) in Peter Jackson. Jackson was a little pre prime, but it is only a year or two later that he was supposedly better than Jim Corbett and John L Sullivan.

5. Hasim Rahman - Lennox was not in the best condition and some say that the stoppage was a little controversial, but it wasnt that far removed from Lennox being considered a top 10 ATG.

6. Marvin Hart - Say what you like, and it was a controversial win, but how many people would walk away with a victory over Jack Johnson at that stage of Johnson's career.

7. George Foreman - Many say Smoking Joe was fat and overconfident. I cant believe many others would have beaten Joe on this date.

8. Jim Jeffries - His win over Fitzsimmons is probably his best, it is hard to know how close to prime fitz was, but since he had huge wins after and before, i think he was reasonably close and probably a top 20 ATG fighter.

9 Riddick Bowe - He defeated as close to prime version of Evander Holyfield, in their first fight, as one could imagine.

10. Bob Fitzsimmons - He beat Gentleman Jim Corbett, pretty closs to Jims Prime. Admittedly, he had probably declined a little after winning the title, but Jim went on to become a great.

That is a quick list, and no doubt it can and would change with some serious thought, but isnt it amazing. I think it is pretty reasonable considering the criteria, and really the only way to prove your own greatness is by beating the best fighter you can beat, so the criteria is solid, but if I was to post a top 10 as Frazier, Schmelling, Ali, Farnan, Rahman, Hart, Foreman, Jeffries, Bowe, Fitzsimmons, - No one would take it, even remotely serious.

Anyway, how do would other lists vary?

Son of Gaul · Feb 22, 2010

Boilermaker said: ↑

We often talk about film, resume, head to head etc. But, who would be the top 10 fighters where a fighter can only be ranked as good as the very best fighter (on the day they fought them), that he beat.

At a quick glance, this is how i see it.

1. Joe Frazier - His Win over Muhammed Ali, even allowing for the 3 year hiatus was probably the best fighter that was ever beaten.

2. Max Schmelling - Louis was pre prime and partying, but how many other fighters would have still scored thewin, and by KO too.

3. Muhammed Ali - He had heat, ropes and other conditions on his side, but lets be honest, there is every chance that no other fighter alive could beat the man he beat.

4. Bill Farnan - Out of left field and maybe a little controversial, but one of my favourites. Bill beat a top 20 All time Great (arguably higher) in Peter Jackson. Jackson was a little pre prime, but it is only a year or two later that he was supposedly better than Jim Corbett and John L Sullivan.

5. Hasim Rahman - Lennox was not in the best condition and some say that the stoppage was a little controversial, but it wasnt that far removed from Lennox being considered a top 10 ATG.

6. Marvin Hart - Say what you like, and it was a controversial win, but how many people would walk away with a victory over Jack Johnson at that stage of Johnson's career.

7. George Foreman - Many say Smoking Joe was fat and overconfident. I cant believe many others would have beaten Joe on this date.

8. Jim Jeffries - His win over Fitzsimmons is probably his best, it is hard to know how close to prime fitz was, but since he had huge wins after and before, i think he was reasonably close and probably a top 20 ATG fighter.

9 Riddick Bowe - He defeated as close to prime version of Evander Holyfield, in their first fight, as one could imagine.

10. Bob Fitzsimmons - He beat Gentleman Jim Corbett, pretty closs to Jims Prime. Admittedly, he had probably declined a little after winning the title, but Jim went on to become a great.

That is a quick list, and no doubt it can and would change with some serious thought, but isnt it amazing. I think it is pretty reasonable considering the criteria, and really the only way to prove your own greatness is by beating the best fighter you can beat, so the criteria is solid, but if I was to post a top 10 as Frazier, Schmelling, Ali, Farnan, Rahman, Hart, Foreman, Jeffries, Bowe, Fitzsimmons, - No one would take it, even remotely serious.

Anyway, how do would other lists vary?
Click to expand...

Interesting thread...

teeto · Feb 22, 2010

Very good!

TheGreatA · Feb 22, 2010

Buster Douglas KO10 Mike Tyson

Honourable mentions:

Willie Meehan (1918 Jack Dempsey)
Jersey Joe Walcott (KO7 Ezzard Charles)
Ken Norton (SD12 Ali)
Michael Spinks (UD15 Larry Holmes)
Corrie Sanders (KO2 Wladimir Klitschko)

bodhi · Feb 22, 2010

Interesting idea and harder than you think at first glance. I compiled the list by going by my ranking.

1. Schmeling - I hink the Louis parying thing is exageraed. Louis already had beaten two former linear champs in Baer and Carnera and a few conernders like Levinski, Retzlaff and Uzcudun and would go on to beat another former champ in Sharkey in his next fight.

2. Frazier - could probably switched with Schmeling but Ali just had two fights after a three year lay-off.

3. Michael Spinks - beating a slightly pas prime but 48-0 Holmes is a great win.

4. Oliver McCall - beating a prime Lewis

5. Riddick Bowe - beaing a prime Holyfield. Twice.

6. Marvin Hart - beat prime Jack Johnson, albeit a bit controversial. He was the only one who did it.

7. George Foreman - bouncing Frazier around like a basketball should be quite a feat. And he did it twice.

8. Muhammad Ali - his win over Foreman is up there.

9. James Buster Douglas - Tyson, Tokyo. I don't need to say more I think.

0. Sonny Liston - beating Patterson twice in one round.

Just missed out:
Gene Tunney - beating Dempsey and then beating him again. Dempsey had his career best win over Sharkey in-between.

TBooze · Feb 22, 2010

Surely Randy Turpin should top the list on this criteria?

Boilermaker · Feb 22, 2010

TheGreatA said: ↑

Buster Douglas KO10 Mike Tyson

Honourable mentions:

Willie Meehan (1918 Jack Dempsey)
Jersey Joe Walcott (KO7 Ezzard Charles)
Ken Norton (SD12 Ali)
Michael Spinks (UD15 Larry Holmes)
Corrie Sanders (KO2 Wladimir Klitschko)
Click to expand...

These are all very, very good suggestions, it is near impossible to narrow things down. Chris Byrd is an interesting one. Is the old Holyfield win better than the Vitali Klitchsko win?

teeto · Feb 22, 2010

Very good question

TheGreatA · Feb 22, 2010

Boilermaker said: ↑

These are all very, very good suggestions, it is near impossible to narrow things down. Chris Byrd is an interesting one. Is the old Holyfield win better than the Vitali Klitchsko win?
Click to expand...

Interestingly both Vitali and Holyfield fought Byrd with torn rotator cuffs.

I think Lennox's TKO win over a prime Vitali tops Byrd's TKO of unbeaten but untested Vitali. The question to me is whether a cuts stoppage over a prime Vitali is better than a decision win over an aging Holyfield for Lewis.

janitor · Feb 22, 2010

I think that James Douglas has to be in this discussion whatever the circumstances of his win over Tyson.

I think Sam Langford's win over Harry Wills deserves recognition.

Flea Man · Feb 22, 2010

Duran over Leonard in Montreal :deal

If I understand the thread that is

anarci · Feb 22, 2010

Esteban Dejesus over Roberto Duran
ANtonio Tarver over Roy Jones
Jermanine Taylor over Bernard Hopkins

teeto · Feb 22, 2010

Antonio Becerra SD12 Salvador Sanchez?

teeto · Feb 22, 2010

Okay the best fighters ever on their night:

Esteban Dejesus (w Roberto Duran)
Buster Douglas (w Mike Tyson)
Jimmy Young (w George Foreman)
Antonio Becerra (w Salvador Sanchez)
Tiger Jones (w Sugar Ray Robinson)
Tancy Lee (w Jimmy Wilde)
Boogaloo Watts (w Marvin Hagler)
Soldier Bartfield (w newspaper decision Harry Greb)
Pedro Flores (w Yoko Gushiken)
Hasim Rahman (w Lennox Lewis)

In no particular order.

GPater11093 · Feb 22, 2010

Love teh Gushiken mention.

But surely Zapata WSD Chang

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