Basically, I took the classic section's top 100 list, and tried to match the top 30 with their greatest wins to see how they'd stack up against Mayweather and Pacquiao's resumes. Some of these guys have rock solid CVs while others look a might thin. I'm sure I screwed some things up since I know almost nothing about a few of these guys' careers; so please tell me what I got wrong and maybe offer a few pointers on how I can improve this ledger. What did I leave off and what shouldn't I have included? Also, do you think there is room for May and Pac in the top 30 of the gloved era? 01 - Sam Langford - Jeanette, McVey, Wills, Norfolk, Flowers, Gans, Godfrey, O'Brien 02 - Harry Greb - Tunney, Walker, Loughran, Gibbons, Norfolk, Slattery, Smith, Levinsky, Miske, Flowers, Rosenbloom 03 - Sugar Ray Robinson - Angott, Zivic, Armstrong, LaMotta, Gavilan, Villemain, Fullmer, Basilio, Graziano, Olson 04 - Henry Armstrong - Arizmendi, Ross, Ambers, Garcia, Angott, Wolgast, Jenkins, Zivic, 05 - Ezzard Charles - Louis, Walcott, Moore, Bivins, Burley, Maxim, Yarosz, Overlin, Marshall, Christoforidis, Lesnevich 06 - Bob Fitzsimmons - Dempsey, Maher, Corbett, Gardiner, O'Brien 07 - Muhammad Ali - Liston, Moore, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Ellis, Quarry 08 - Joe Gans - Erne, Connolly, Nelson, Sullivan, ? 09 - Joe Louis - Carnera, Levinsky, Baer, Uzcudun, Sharkey, Braddock, Schmeling, Conn, Nova, Walcott, Savold, Bivins 10 - Roberto Duran - Leonard, DeJesus, Buchanan, Barkley, Cuevas, Palomino, Ishimatsu, Mamby, Viruet, Marcel, Kobayashi 11 - Benny Leonard - Welsh, Dundee, Kilbane, Britton, White, Tendler 12 - Mickey Walker - Britton, Tendler, Flowers, Levinsky, Uzcudun, Rosenbloom 13 - Willie Pep - Saddler, Wright, Ortiz, Famechon 14 - Barney Ross - McLarnin, Canzoneri, Battalino, Garcia 15 - Archie Moore - Bivins, Chase, Williams, Johnson, Satterfield, Maxim, Olson, Cocoa Kid, Marshall 16 - Ray Leonard - Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Benitez, Kalule, Mayweather, Lalonde 17 - George Dixon - Kelly, Wallace, McCarthy, Sullivan 18 - Terry McGovern - Gans, Dixon, Erne, Palmer, 19 - Packey McFarland - Welsh, Britton, Gibbons 20 - Pernell Whitaker - Chavez, Ramirez, Mayweather, Haugen, Nelson, McGirt 21 - Tony Canzoneri - McLarnin, Ambers, Dundee, Singer, Berg, Chocolate, Arizmendi 22 - Jimmy McLarnin - Mandell, Singer, Corbett III, Ross, Canzoneri, Ambers, Leonard, Petrolle, Villa, La Barba 23 - Sandy Saddler - Pep, Carter, Brown, Elorde, De Marco 24 - Stanley Ketchel - Sullivan, Papke, O'Brien 25 - Charley Burley - Cocoa Kid, Moore, Williams, Zivic, Soose, Chase 26 - Holman Williams - Cocoa Kid, Booker, Burley, Marshall, Chase, Moore, Satterfield, 27 - Billy Conn - Krieger, Apostoli, Yarosz, Bettina, Lesnevich, McCoy, Savold, Zale 28 - Gene Tunney - Dempsey, Greb, Carpentier, Gibbons, Levinsky 29 - Roy Jones - Hopkins, Toney, McCallum, Hill, Tarver, Ruiz 30 - Joe Walcott - Ferns, Dixie Kid, Jackson, Smith Manny Pacquiao- Marquez, Morales, Barrera, De La Hoya, Cotto, Bradley, Margarito, Mosley, Hatton, Ledwaba Floyd Mayweather Jr.- Pacquiao, De La Hoya, Alvarez, Castillo, Corrales, Mosley, Cotto, Hernandez, Marquez
Kalule is a much better win for SRL than Mayweather. Maywether would be behind others too but notably Kalule. Ramirez belongs on Whitaker's ledger and i'd consider putting Chavez there considering barely anyone thought Whitaker lost that one.
I got bored yesterday and decided to do the rest of the top 100. 31 - Carlos Monzon - Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles, Briscoe, Valdez 32 - Jimmy Wilde - Jennings, Symonds, Hughes, Smith, Lee, Noble, Conn, Lynch, Moore 33 - Eder Jofre - Medel, Legra, Saldivar, 34 - Marvin Hagler - Hearns, Duran, Antuofermo, Minter, Mugabi, Hamsho, Roldan, Briscoe 35 - Julio Cesar Chavez - Mayweather, Lockridge, Laporte, Rosario, Limon, Ramirez, Taylor, Camacho, Haugen 36 - Tommy Gibbons - Chip. Meehan, Miske, Norfolk 37 - Kid Gavilan - Williams, Jack, Basilio, Dauthuille, Janiro, Graham, Villemain 38 - Jack Britton - Kid Lewis, O'Dowd, Leonard, Walker 39 - Emile Griffith - Ortega, Fernandez, Rodriguez, Paret, Fullmer, Tiger, Archer, Benvenuti, Briscoe 40 - Jose Napoles - Griffith 41 - Alexis Arguello - Olivares, Escalera, Limon, Chacon, Ramirez, Mancini 42 - Michael Spinks - Holmes, Johnson, Muhammad, Qawi, Cooney 43 - Tommy Loughran - Walker, Greb, Baer, Braddock, Carpentier, Stribling, McTigue, Slattery, Schaaf, Uzcudun, Levinsky, Sharkey 44 - Thomas Hearns - Cuevas, Benitez, Duran, Andries, Roldan, Hill 45 - Jimmy Bivins - Christoforidis, Yarosz, Bettina, Soose, Lesnevich, Maxim, Savold, Charles, Marshall, Moore 46 - Ike Williams - Angott, Montgomery, Jack, 47 - Floyd Mayweather - Pacquiao, De La Hoya, Alvarez, Castillo, Corrales, Mosley, Cotto, Hernandez, Marquez 48 - Manny Pacquiao - Marquez, Morales, Barrera, De La Hoya, Cotto, Bradley, Margarito, Mosley, Hatton, Ledwaba 49 - Tommy Ryan - Smith, Dempsey, ? 50 - Jack Dillon - Levinsky, Chip, Flynn, Smith 51 - Bernard Hopkins - Trinidad, De La Hoya, Joppy, Wright, Tarver, Pavlik, Jones, Pascal 52 - Carlos Ortiz - Torres, Loi, Brown, Elorde, Laguna, Ramos 53 - Fighting Harada - Jofre, Ebihara, Kingpetch, Rudkin, Medel 54 - Ruben Olivares - Rose, Rudkin, Pimentel, Chacon, Ramirez 55 - Evander Holyfield - Tyson, Bowe, Moorer, Holmes, Foreman, Thomas, Dokes, Ruiz, Qawi 56 - Young Corbett III - Garcia, Lesnevich, Walker, Conn, Apostoli 57 - Mike Gibbons - Lewis, Dillon, Greb, Chip, O'Dowd 58 - Ted Kid Lewis - Britton, O'Dowd 59 - Freddie Welsh - Atell, Driscoll, Dundee, Wolgast 60 - Freddie Steele - Garcia, Lesnevich, Krieger, Overlin, Jones, Apostoli, Risko 61 - Lou Ambers - Canzoneri, Armstrong, Jenkins, Cocoa Kid, Villa, Zivic, Arizmendi 62 - Salvador Sanchez - Gomez, Lopez, Nelson, Laporte 63 - Wilfredo Gomez - Zarate, Pintor, Laporte, Davila, Lockridge 64 - Vicente Saldivar - Laguna, Ramos, Winstone, Legra, Famechon 65 - Rocky Marciano - Louis, Charles, Walcott, Moore, Savold, LaStarza 66 - Abe Attell - Dixon, Nelson, Kilbane 67 - Manuel Ortiz - ? 68 - Harold Johnson - Bivins, Moore, Charles, Satterfield, Valdez, Jones 69 - Dick Tiger - Downes, Giardello, Fernandez, Fullmer, Carter, Benvenuti, Torres 70 - Luis Manuel Rodriguez - Griffith, Paret, Carter, Benton, Briscoe 71 - Carmen Basilio - Robinson, Jenkins, Williams, Graham, Saxton, Ortega 72 - Carlos Zarate - Zamora, Davila 73 - Miguel Canto - ? 74 - Oscar De La Hoya - Chavez, Whitaker, Hernandez, Quartey, Mayorga, Sturm 75 - Azumah Nelson - Gomez, Fenech, Laporte 76 - Mike McCallum - Toney, Kalule, Jackson, Curry, Watson, Collins, Kalambay, Harding 77 - Lary Holmes - Norton, Witherspoon, Weaver, Cooney, Berbick, Mercer, Ali, Shavers 78 - Bob Foster - Tiger 79 - Teddy Yarosz - Overlin, Krieger, Marshall 80 - Jim Driscoll - Dixon, Attell 81 - Panama Al Brown - ? 82 - Pascual Perez - ? 83 - Lloyd Marshall - Charles, Burley, Overlin, Yarosz, Christoforidis, Williams, Maxim, Chase 84 Jake LaMotta - Robinson, Cerdan, Yarosz, Villemain, Janiro, Williams, Zivic 85 - Juan Manuel Marquez - Pacquiao, Barrera 86 Wilfred Benitez - Cervantes, Palomino, Duran 87 Nonpareil Jack Dempsey - Donovan, ? 88 Erik Morales - Pacquiao, Barrera, Zaragoza, Ayala 89 Marco Antonio Barrera - Morales, Hamed, Tapia, Ayala 90 - Young Griffo - ? 91 - Fritzie Zivic - Armstrong, Burley, Angott, Kid Azteca, LaMotta, Jenkins, Booker 92 - Joe Frazier - Ali, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Machen, Chuvalo 93 - Pete Herman - Williams, Wilde 94 - Lennox Lewis - Tyson, Holyfield, V. Klitschko, Tua, Golota, Mercer, Ruddock 95 - Jack "Kid" Berg - Kid Chocolate, Petrolle, Canzoneri 96 - Philadelphia Jack O'Brien - Fitzsimmons, Choynski, Jackson 97 - James Toney - McCallum, Nunn, Jirov, Holyfield, Ruiz 98 - Nicolino Locche - Brown, Cervantes 99 - Jung Koo Chang - Zapata, Chitalada 100-George Foreman - Frazier, Chuvalo, Norton, Lyle, Cooney, Moorer Maybe, I'm missing something but why is Stanley Ketchel 24 and James Toney 97? Then there are little quibbles like why is Archie Moore after Willie Pep when from what I can see he's got a lot more good names to his credit. Did I just miss a ton of good guys that Pep beat? Also, who did Jose Napoles beat that I'm forgetting? I got Griffith and then I'm drawing a blank. Pacquiao and Mayweather are much better than Ike Williams. Loughran and Bivins apparently beat everybody but are all the way back in the 40s. The list is full of little headscratchers like that.
in a corrupted sport, i would prefer clear wins by ko and ud with kd's. if the wins were just products of points system, it is generally questionable for me.
I don't know about that. I think they just took more at bats and maybe avoided their biggest threats less. I am really not sold on some of the late 1800s and early 1900s fighters on this list. Guys like George Dixon, Terry McGovern, Packey McFarland seem way too high. Modern guys like Chavez or Pacquiao have way more notable names on their win ledger than Packey McFarland. I'm not really sure how they justify him being so high. I'm sure he was good and his record is nearly unblemished, but so are Ricardo Lopez' and Sven Ottke's. What makes Packey McFarland so much better than Joe Calzaghe, Duilio Loi, and Marcel Cerdan who didn't even make the list? There's definitely some old timer bias going on. I mean Freddie Steele is leagues better than Stanley Ketchel while being 30 points farther down the list and James Toney barely makes the list at all. He went from middleweight to heavyweight just like Bob Fitzsimmons who's sitting at number 6!
I'll have a Captain Cook at the new additions tonight. May i suggest if a fighter has beaten a top rival twice add "x2"?
You got my top 3 correct, tho I have Greb #1. And by the way, Greb beat Flowers also.. and Maxie Rosenbloom and Mike McTigue and Bill Brennan (5x) and Eddie McGoorty and Jack Blackburn...
I'll add Flowers and Rosenbloom, but McTigue was a pug (belt or no) and I'm not sure that Brennan or Jack Blackburn were elite enough to mention. You gotta' draw the line somewhere or else you'd have to include every fighter they faced as major opponents. I'm not about to include Maidana or Berto for Mayweather for instance.
Mike Weaver is better than at least half the names you have in there for him and it was a classic fight. Olivares must be on Arguello's, i'd add Boza Edwards too. Qawi needs to be added to Holyfield. Maybe Castillo for Sanchez. I'd add Meza for Gomez and the Lockridge decision was one of the worst in history. Davila is notable for Zarate, he went on to be champ. Villasana and Martinez are good wins for Nelson. Rondon and Quarry for Foster maybe. Vitali is the big omission for Lewis.
In this list doesn't work well in the heavyweights case at all. Especially in Lennox "Luigi" case. (Tyson,Holyfield,Mercer,Ruddock were shot ,Tua and Golota never were world champion by the biggest organizations) .The Byrd victim Vitali Klitschko hmm... Lewis could win only 2 rounds his win wasn't impressive at all. Lewis' list sounds well like Byrd's (V.Klitschko,Tua,Holyfield) but shows only the half-truth. I think Mike Tyson is very underrated considering Holmes' and Holyfield's or Lewis' best wins. Iron Mike beat a far better Berbick,Thomas,Holmes or Ruddock(two times) than these fighters.
Their are some variable's to consider though. A fighter can have quite a few" big name" opponent's, But when did said fighter defeat that "name" opponent? Was that "Name" opponent defeated at or even close to prime? Did the fighter have other advantages that could make a difference? Size, weight etc? Some fighters were masters (Mayweather) of manipulating their record .
The problem with this line of thinking is that you could say similar things about maybe half of the wins on this list. Either they weren't prime, or were smaller, or they carried an injury into the ring, or there was corrupt judging. If you are going to look sideways at Lennox Lewis' record then you have to do the same to Rocky Marciano's.
