Top 15 Greatest Heavyweights In History (Please Participate)

Being disregarded by the powers that be does nary prove superiority.

 

I can see your arguments and if you would make a h2h list I would think you would have a point. But a proper list can't be based on head to head IMHO but on the actual resume, achievements, longevity and dominance. Because these things are actual facts. H2h is pure speculation. I stated this again and again. Same with ability. You can look great against bums but can you be rated based on that? I don't think so.
If you make a list based mainly on h2h and put Vitali in your Top15. Fine. I can see your points. But most of the lists with Vitali in the Top15 seem not to be based on h2h. And I want to see the arguments on that.

On your article. Sorry but beeing never behind on cards, KO percentage, never beeing floored and having less tomatoe-cans on your record are non-arguments. They ignore totally Vitali's subpar opposition.
And sorry but neither Universum nor Sdunek are second rate promoter or trainer. That's just wrong. Sdunek trained 10+ world champs. Second rate my ass.
The only point that is a real argument is his comeback. But that's it.

 

Thanks. I did in fact include resume, achievements, longevity, and dominance. I just did not spell it out. I will now.

Resume:

190-15 as an amateur. World amateur champ.
World amateur kick boxing champion
Pro kick boxing champion with a 29-2 record*
Pro boxing champion WBO, WBC, IBO, and Ring Magazine champion. Current 39-2 record.
10-2 in world title fights as a pro boxer.

Achievements:

Highest KO% among the history of heavyweights.
Never floored by a punch as a pro.
Best rounds won to round lost ratio in the history of heavyweight boxing. Never behind on score cards after rd 3.
A come back in the late 30 with near four years off, which includes a 4-0 run vs 4 top ten ring magazine ranked guys, three of which were stopped, the other lost 120-108 on a score card.

Longevity: He's still a force at age 38. Louis was done for and Ali was punch drunk by then. Very few champions had their belt and fought well at Vitali's age. And few came back from as many surgeries. Vitali looks to keep his belt and make a few title defenses in a row until until age 40. No heavyweight has done that.

Dominance: There is no one in his era what dared to give him a re-match, and no one besides his brother who can give him a tough fight.

Second rate compared to Blackburn, Dundee, Steward, Futch, or Arcel...for sure. Sdunek is not in their class as a trainer. That is my point.

I hope you can accept the others as I broke them down on your terms.

 

Patterson is a tough call, I think he can be considered p4p significantly higher than a lot of the people I'd rank above him for just HW. I'm just beginning though with making lists. I only decided to give p4p and division by division lists a little while ago. Interesting hobby though.

 

Is he really planning on hanging in until 40? To try and get all the belts between he and Wlad or for another reason? It seemed like he was making it a point after Arreola that he didn't want to be around too much longer. As you mentioned with the surgeries and the other combat sports fights, I'm sure it takes an immense toll. I'm impressed that he's really been motivated enough to still be going at this level. Staying in at that kind of fitness alone is tough enough for most of these guys, let alone looking for the best fights, regardless of the division's condition.

 

The highlighted part is totally irrelevant ranking him as a pro boxer. Totally irrelevant.
IBO? You gotta kidding me?
Yep, he picked up two belts in his career and was ring mag champ for a while. That's not bad but these things fall under achievements not resume. :bart
And compared to what even somebody like Patterson, Walcott, or Charles who had all the real title it just falls short.
10-2 is not bad but those were fights for belts for the most. And it was against mediocre opponents. That's what resume is bout. Who he fought and how good his opponents were and how he did against them.

Like I already wrote the highlighted part only get's relevant in combination with his resume and that makes them more or less irrelevant because his opposition was mediocre in an all-time sense.

He had 41 fights. Longevity is not just about age but about how long the career was and how many fights they had. 41 fights are okay but not actually a good longevity.
Louis and Ali were done at 40 right but look hof often they fought and look at their far superior resume. It's a joke that you bring that up.

True. He is very dominant but this has to be looked at in the context of his opposition. Ali wouldn have lost one round against Vitali's opposition - aside of Lewis perhaps.

A question: how many world champs have Blackburn or Dundee trained before Louis and Ali and what where their credentials? You have your answer. :good

You make the mistake to totally ignore his quality of opposition but that is the most important fight when you want to rank a fighter. Dominance, longevity and achievements don't mean much when the quality of opposition is low.

 

When it comes to longevity, I don't believe it's at all irrelevant to take under consideration the miles he's had on himself as an amateur and in his kickboxing career. Of course his kickboxing accomplishments don't add to his resume as a boxer but they do add to the context of his longevity as a world class athlete in his boxing career. You take blows to your body, you stay in world class shape long enough, it takes a toll and you have to factor it into how he's still going. My opinion.

I take a look at some of these newer fighters for instance and look at what kind of career they've had in the amateurs. Gamboa, Rigondeaux and Solis, that crop of defected Cubans trying to make their name in the pros now, I have to look at whatever they can achieve with the consideration of the miles they already have on them. I can't look at it without that context, personally. Of course we all see it differently and that's what makes it interesting. :good

 

Correct Vitali had over 300 combined boxing and kick boxing matches. That is a lot of fights. To still be on top after all that at age 38 is remarkable.

 

Oh really? Who did Patterson ever beat in title matches, besides Ingo? Most of them were far easier than Vitlai's opponents.

How many title defenses did Walcott make? Who did Charles beat that can be viewed as top notch as heavyweight champion, besides Walcott who went 2-2 with him, and Ko'd him clean with one punch?

As I said before, almost all champions can have their opposition picked apart. I happen to think Vitlai's title opponents were better than Charles

If Vitali was matches vs. small heavies, cruiser weight or light heavies, he look even better.

Longevity includes age, and total fights. Vitali is 38 and has had 300+ combat matches as a pro and amateur kick boxer. 41 boxing matches does not tell the entire story. can you name 5 heavies who looked better than Vitlai is now at age 38???? If you can't, I think its safe to say Vitali has good longevity.

Ali for sure fought the best competition, but he also struggled at times vs guys Vitlai would have easy nights with. Louis competition as champion was often suspect...very suspect. Bum of the month club type guys, and only two of his 26 title defenses were vs. black opponents. The best fighters Louis fought were Schemling, M. Bear, Marciano, Walcott, and Charles. The Brown bomber is 3-4 vs these men on fair score cards...yes Walcott was robbed in the first fight.

Disagree 100%. Ali lost plenty of rounds. If you want a seperate thread on this, I can show you where, and when.

As I said before, anyones competition can be knocked.

 

God, you are as slick as Willie Pep when it comes to Vitali but all your arguements don't negate the fact that Vitali lacks in resume to be ranked where you and other's rank him. That's not his fault. He can only beat who is available and who knows how he would have done in other eras. But fact is fact. :bart

 

I definitely agree with your top 3. Muhammad Ali,without doubt in my mind,is certainly the number one heavy of all time. Natural ability,speed,and in his 60's prime,uncanny radar which enabled him to avoid a punch. Later on he proved that he could TAKE a shot just as well as he could avoid one. As faras his resume goes,he had a few questionable decisions towards the end,but his record circa 1964-75 is second to none. In that period,he only had two losses which he evened the score on. Joe Frazier,who was another all time great,and Ken Norton who was n't a great,but certainly a very good heavyweight.

 

Dundee trained.
Carmen Basilio
Jose Napoles
Luis Rodriguez
Sugar Ramos
Ralph Dupas.
And, after Ali Leonard

Balckburn trained.
Sammy Mandell
Bud Taylor
Jersey Joe Walcott.
Who has Sudenek trained?

 

At a glance .. not appropriate to haggle over some of the ordering .. but first look says it's a real good list.:good

 

No two posts will be identical ,but if the "usual suspects" are there, none should be decried imo.We all have our favourites,I probaly rate Johnson ,and Dempsey too high, will I rectify that ? NO!

 

World Champs or former Worldchamps he trained:
Zsolt Erdei
Sebastian Zbik
Vitali Klitschko
Karoly Balzsay
Artur Grigorian
Juan Carlos Gomez
Wladimir Klitschko
Michael Löwe
Ralf Rocchigiani
Dariusz Michaelchewski

Actual or former world level contender:
Khoren Ghevor
Denis Boytsov
Alexander Dimitrenko
Denix Boytsov
Mario Veit
Alexander Alexeev
Sinan Samil Sam


obviously not as many known names as the guys up there but enough to not consider him a "second rater"