Top 15 HW Champions since 1960-

Liston, now there is an overrated fighter. He stopped Cleveland "So What?" Williams twice. He stopped the very good but not so durable Folley. He stopped the HW Champ who was knocked down the most (20 times) in Patterson (twice). He won a hard fought decision over Eddie Machen, who claims that Liston tried to blind him like he did Ali later on (he just didn't complain about it at the time)... Machen had been stopped in one round by Johansson (a big surprise) and had lost more clearly to Folley and Harold Johnson (after he fought Liston) than he did vs. Liston (Machen also had a draw vs. Folley).

Liston gets better and better every year... in retrospect. He was feared at that time, but Ali slayed the bully, that should have taken care of things. Ali had no trouble with Liston, not even a little bit, but people can't stand it. These people want to make excuses for Liston, some of the craziest ones I've ever heard to be honest. I've heard he was 40, he didn't train at all or that he was shooting more heroin than training, he was injured, etc. If Liston was supposed to be so great he should have been able to overcome all of that. Hell Ali had almost been stopped by Cooper and outboxed by Jones. Even Sonny Banks dropped him.

He got his jaw broke and lost to the 180 Lb. Marty Marshall. He beat Narshall twice, once by KO (So What?) He was lucky to get the win in either fight With Johnny Summerlin early in his career.

 

Liston went 2-2 (2) in HW World Tittle fights. KO1 Patterson twice, LKOby6 Ali, and LKOby1 Ali. He was dropped with one punch from Ali (sure, he could have continued though). He was KTFO by Leotis Martin late in his career.

I'm not saying the man wasn't a great fighter... but a lot of what we think about him in these H2H fantasy matches and lists is built on just as much speculation as what we use for Bowe. Liston never fought very many big and talented fighters who could punch. Williams was pretty big but not huge, he really wasn't much. Williams went 1-1 vs. Terrell and drew with Machen, that's all. He got slaughtered by Liston x2 and Ali (yeah yeah, after he was shot). He was beat by several non-great fighter as well (even before he was shot). Patterson, Folley, and Machen were far from big Heavyweights. Patterson had the most power of those 3 but couldn't stay on his feet long enough to do much.

Riddick Bowe fought Evander Fvcking Holyfield 3 times. If Holyfield cheated, he cheated. No matter what the finished product was or how he got there, Holyfield was a bad MOFO and Bowe had to deal with him 3 times... how'd that work out for Bowe again? That's right 2-1 (1) in Bowe's favor and the loss was a Majority Decision.

He was not at his best vs. Golota but still took a beating and kept on going in both fights. Bowe was better in their rematch and really had Golota hurt as well.

He stopped a past prime Thomas after 8 rounds (it's at least as good as beating a totally washed up Nino Valdes), he stopped the hard hitting Bert Cooper inside of 2 rounds (as good as beating Roy Harris I'd say), he beat the crap out of Biggs (8th round KO) who really come to fight (better than a win over Howard King), he struggled with Tubbs but got the win vs. the very determined veteran (Johnny Summerlin x2, Marty Marshall (1st fight), Eddie Machen), he destroyed Seldon who had went 9 tough rounds with McCall before getting stopped (Cleveland Williams), he stopped Elijah Tillery inside of 4 rounds who had never been stopped before and was known to give Mike Tyson trouble in the gym (Bert Whitehurst), he stopped Pierre Coetzer inside of 7 rounds (he fought pretty dirty in this fight and he was good at it) (Mike DeJohn). He beat Holyfield in an epic battle to win the HW World Title in 1992 (Holyfield was way better than Folley, Machen, or Patterson).

He crushed old Michael Dokes (KO1) who had gone 9-0 (5) since his loss to Ruddock including clear wins over Ferguson and Jose Ribalta, he crushed old Jesse Ferguson (KO2) who had beat Ray Mercer. He lost a very close decision to Holyfield in their 2nd fight (he fough well despite being overweight). He gave Buster Mathis Jr. a beating but the fight was ruled a NC after Bowe layed Mathis out with a shot that landed while Mathis was on one knee (he's lucky he wasn't DQ'd), he clearly outboxed a very good boxer in Larry Donald (I had it 12 rounds to 0), he stopped the fast and hard hitting Herbie Hide in the 6th round, he crushed the giant Jorge Gonzalez in less than 6 rounds (his first loss), He has a tough fight with Holyfield in their 3rd fight and was even dropped for the first time. He did stop Holyfield in the 8th round though. In his next 2 fights he struggled with Golota who was at his absolute best (except for he couldn't or wouldn't keep his punches up) but couldn't get the job done vs. Bowe. Bowe took a beating but also gave a beating. Golota kept hitting Bowe's nutsack and was DQ'd in both fights. This was not Bowe at his best and he retired after the Golota fights... for almost 8 years.

 

10 years ago? I was on SecondsOut.com forum and a few others. I've always been Hookie though.

 

I can't say that I disagree with you. My whole point was that both lack those type of opponents on their resume (Liston and Bowe) and that much of what we think of these guys is based on what we think they could have done... instead of what they actually did.

My question is why is it OK to put Liston high up on these lists but not Bowe? At least Bowe beat Holyfield 2 out of 3. Liston didn't do **** against Ali and as good as Patterson, Folley, and Machen were... hell I'll even throw Williams in there, they were not as good as Holyfield.

 

Wow! I don't know about this list.

Tucker fvcking sucked in my opinion, get him off the list. His claim to fame is going the distance with Tyson and Lewis (was dropped twice). A prime Lewis you say? Lewis was better with Manny Steward. He stopped a prime Douglas you say? No fvcking way Douglas was at his very best that night. He actually had respiratory problems that made him get winded late in the fight. He had outboxed Tucker thru most of the fight. This wasn't Tokyo Douglas... and Tyson wasn't at his very best for Douglas so get Douglas off of the list as well.

Bonecrusher Smith? Sure, he had some good wins but he had some clear losses as well. He was clearly outboxed by Witherspoon (a near shut out) in their first fight. He was stopped by Holmes. He was outboxed by Marvis Frazier, Tony Tubbs, Adilson Rodrigues, barely beat Jesse Ferguson by decision. Sure, he stopped Weaver (who lost a lot) and Witherspoon (ever actually see this fight?) and even dropped Ruddock before getting stopped but that's not enough to make the list.


McCall had one good night, one good punch actually. Stopped Seldon after getting outboxed for 8 rounds. Stopped a young Maskaev. What else did he do besides cry in the ring vs. Lewis?

Bruno got stopped by every top fighter he faced, except for McCall... which should make you ask yourself, "was McCall a top fighter?"

Holmes was the Lineal HW Champ, that's better than having the WBC, WBA, and IBF all at the same time. He did hold the WBC and the IBF. When he beat Ali he became the Lineal HW Champ. How dare you have Spinks (I'm assuming Michael because Leon was pretty much a joke as a pro) ahead of Holmes. Sure, he went 2-0 vs. Holmes but he didn't really deserve to.

 

not bad

 

Ruiz was actually a pretty tough guy but hard on the eyes. His style was so awful to watch and actually a violation of the rules if you want to get technical. I mean seriously, what in the hell was his strategy?

Hold, hold and hit, if you start to go down or get hurt tackle your opponent but make it look like you tripped and fell into him. If you go down from a body shot insist it was a lowblow. Slip a punch and grab... why not try a counter punch? Act like your trying to jab but really grab... I call it the jab and grab.

Now, these wins you speak of? How many of them were questionable? He went 1-1-1 in 3 fights vs. Holyfield. Their first fight was close and Ruiz did deserve a rematch in my opinion. Their 2nd fight was a win for Ruiz but it was so damn dirty (more so on Ruiz' part and Holyfield should have been credited with a knockdown but Ruiz played it off as a lowblow). Their 3rd fight was a draw but I thought Holyfield deserved it.

He clearly lost to Jones and Toney (changed to a NC).

I give him credit for the wins over Johnson, Rahman, and Oquendo but it was more a case of what his opponents didn't do over what Ruiz actually did. These guys should have been able to beat him.

I thought Golota did enough to beat him.

Something happened after the Toney fight though... I actually started to like the guy. He fought well vs. Valuev twice (SD in their 1st fight) and Chagaev (SD), all 3 fights were in Germany and you can makje a case that he deserved to win these fights. He also clearly beat McCline. I knew Haye would finish his career though.