Top 20 Lightweights of all time

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Apr 25, 2018.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Why do I need to explain it?

    I enjoyed that post and good footage, but it's hardly a deal breaker of any sort?

    Here's what I wrote about Carter last time I got deep into the rankings:

    If you can track it down or are in possession of it, it is worth revisiting Pete Ehrmann's 2007 Ring Magazine article on Jimmy Carter, which is about as fine a summary of the difficulties in ranking him as you are ever likely to see. To say Carter was something of a controversial figure is to put it mildly.

    His 1952 loss to Lauro Salas was viewed as suspect, his 1955 loss to Bud Smith, more so. In the Smith rematch, bizarre judging saw the fight result changed three times. In perhaps the worst refereeing performance of the decade, Carter was allowed to splatter a featherweight named Tommy Collins for ten minutes scoring one knockdown a minute in a nationally televised championship fight which brought coast-to-coast condemnation from viewers and press alike. His career was an absurd mess – despite the fact that he was a three times champion of the whole world with some wonderful wins over top opposition under his belt.

    The best of these wins was in his first for the title. It's true that the all-time-great power-punching technician that was Ike Williams was struggling badly with the lightweight weight limit by 1951, but it is also true that no lightweight had beaten him in six years. Carter, “a relative unknown even in his own hometown” according to the Associate Press, decked Williams four times before the referee rescued him in the fourteenth round.

    This is a wonderful win. Carter has more than a few of them. He beat top contenders like Tommy Campbell and George Araujo and he beat champions Paddy DeMarco and Lauro Salas. The problem is that he beat Salas and DeMarco only after having dropped the title to them before scooping it back up in rematches. There were some bold souls who named the Mafia man Carter was supposed to be taking instructions from, one Frankie Carbo (he is worth a Google if you are not acquainted).

    It is a fact that Ike Williams claimed to have been offered a bribe to lose before matching Carter, a bribe he refused (to his regret, having been beaten). In the end though, Carter's wins, particularly the most impressive of them, stand under fewer clouds than those suspect losses. Carter, a three-time champion, is therefore impossible to ignore; but it's with more than a little trepidation that I ensconce him in the top thirty.

    A quick word about all those losses; the majority took place outside the weight range we are interested in and of those we are interested in, he suffered many of them as he wound down his career, broke and eventually forcibly retired by at least one boxing commission.

    I'm happy with that appraisal. Brown:

    Beat no fewer than three #1 contenders which is rare.
    12-1 in legitimate lightweight title matches
    Champion in six calendar years

    These are astonishing qualities. He's also one of the few champions who can lay claim to having "cleaned out the division", or nobody can, one or the other.
     
    McGrain, Apr 26, 2018
    McGrain, Apr 26, 2018
    #31
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    DeJesus is #21, Laguna is #24.

    I can happily see either in the twenty.
     
    McGrain, Apr 26, 2018
    McGrain, Apr 26, 2018
    #32
  3. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I would say 1950 to 1952,

    but Layne didn't stop winning exactly after the Marciano fight. He was never as successful, but besides Charles, he did defeat the decent Willie Bean, and got a draw in Europe with Heinz Neuhaus. His fights with Baker were close enough to warrant the two being matched three times. Of course, this doesn't match up to what he had done earlier, but he still had his moments.

    Araujo? It appears he didn't do much after the Carter bout.

    As for Matthews, I hope to post on him on the 1946-1955 heavyweight thread. I don't think losing to him is inexcusable.

    James perhaps. But Henry lost to Frank Buford. Baker and Valdes lost to Bill Gilliam. And Valdes came close to losing in his hometown to Archie McBride. Layne isn't the only guy with bad performances. He just has the best good ones.
     
    edward morbius, Apr 26, 2018
    edward morbius, Apr 26, 2018
    #33
  4. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Good list
     
    Reinhardt, Apr 26, 2018
    Reinhardt, Apr 26, 2018
    #34
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Nice write up

    I hate to keep harping on it...but

    How did he clean out the division if he got knocked out cold by arauju while in his own prime?...arauju was on an absolute tear...one of the greatest runs of the era at 135. Carter ended his run despite being a huge underdog ...Brown never avenged the loss.
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 26, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Apr 26, 2018
    #35
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    And that still leaves earl walls, whom twice knocked out Layne out cold in dominating fashion while Layne was a major player in the division. He also flattened top 10 Tommy Harrison in 1 round. Walls did enough to earn a top 5 ranking by ring magazine in back to back years.

    When did brion ever earn a top 5 rating?
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 26, 2018
    SuzieQ49, Apr 26, 2018
    #36
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Boxrec says Araururuuruaj never made the lightweight limit after 1953. He retired in 1955 (did come back).

    Brown didn't even begin his unbeaten streak until 1955 and didn't come to the title until 1956.

    He just wasn't anything to do with Brown's divisional dominance. At all.
     
    McGrain, Apr 26, 2018
    McGrain, Apr 26, 2018
    #37
  8. timmers612

    timmers612 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Great to see you in more often of late Suzie! Your top three I have wrestled with as to who gets which spot for years and wouldn't disagree with anyone's choices there. I like how you bucked the trend and put Pernell over Ike, something many oldtimers might get riled over (Burt often said Ike was the best lightweight he had ever seen). Carlos at number 7 seems a solid pick, I can't see him higher and its good seeing someone include Blackburn as high as you did also.
     
    timmers612, Apr 26, 2018
    timmers612, Apr 26, 2018
    #38
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    I don't overly do lists but he'd be well inside a top 20.
     
    JohnThomas1, Apr 26, 2018
    JohnThomas1, Apr 26, 2018
    #39
  10. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Brown was four years removed from winning the championship and carving out one of the best reigns in the division's history. He may have been at his physical peak and was a good fighter, but much like Moore, I don't think he was quite prime as a boxer at that point. By the time he was, Araujo had hit the wall following an unsuccessful crack at Carter and fallen quickly.
     
    Drew101, Apr 26, 2018
    Drew101, Apr 26, 2018
    #40
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  11. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Brion's top was #6, mainly because Louis was still being rated although his career was over. But should guys who rated better than 5th, like Co-kell, then be on the list?

    "He also flattened top 10 Tommy Harrison in 1 round."

    Harrison had also earlier beaten Walls. (just an aside--Harrison was KO'd by Abel Fernandez, who later played Youngfellow-I think the name was-on The Untouchables TV show, one of my favorites)

    Walls also had really bad losses to such as Alf Gallagher and Edgardo Romero. Overall, he didn't have the career Layne had.

    I asked before. Who do I knock out for Walls? LaStarza?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
    edward morbius, Apr 26, 2018
    edward morbius, Apr 26, 2018
    #41
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    My 50's Rings are in a filing cabinet in the spare room, covered with assorted junk,when I get a chance I'll try and dig the article out.
     
    mcvey, Apr 27, 2018
    mcvey, Apr 27, 2018
    #42
  13. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Suz, if it's any consolation, over the years I've always done top 10 or top 15 lists in my head, but I've always enjoyed doing contenders. Probably because they don't get the automatic notoriety of champs on lists which have been done to death, and the subject is somewhat fresher. Anyways, in a top 15 list of lightweight contenders I've always rated Georgie Araujo. I too felt he had such a smooth style. Really liked him.
     
    scartissue, Apr 27, 2018
    scartissue, Apr 27, 2018
    #43
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  14. Gudetama

    Gudetama Active Member Full Member

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    1 Gans
    2 Duran
    3 B Leonard
    4 Armstrong
    5 Whitaker
    6 Ortiz
    7 I Williams
    8 Canzoneri
    9 Ross
    10 Arguello
    11 Chavez
    12 Mayweather
    13 Lavigne
    14 McFarland
    15 Welsh
    16 Ambers
    17 J Brown
    18 De Jesus
    19 Buchanan
    20 Laguna
     
    Gudetama, Apr 28, 2018
    Gudetama, Apr 28, 2018
    #44
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I've always felt Laguna was overated ,but Ken Buchanan recently did a "Best I Have Faced" in the Ring,he rates him very highly.Maybe I've been too harsh on him?
     
    mcvey, Apr 28, 2018
    mcvey, Apr 28, 2018
    #45
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