Top 200 All Time List, Impossible Task ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by trampie, Jan 15, 2009.


  1. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    1] Sugar Ray Robinson
    2] Armstrong
    3] Langford
    4] Greb
    5] Pep
    6] Duran
    7] Wilde
    8] Fitzsimmons
    9] Tunney
    10] Jack Johnson
    11] Charles
    12] B.Leonard
    13] R.Leonard
    14] Louis
    15] Ali
    16] Gans
    17] Jofre
    18] Walker
    19] Moore
    20] Burley
    21] Ketchel
    22] Marciano
    23] Saddler
    24] B.Ross
    25] Whitaker
    26] Monzon
    27] Salvador Sanchez
    28] Roy Jones Jnr
    29] Canzoneri
    30] I.Williams
    31] Jack Dempsey
    32] Hagler
    33] Babadoes Joe Walcott
    34] Holmes
    35] Dixon
    36] Cesar Charvez
    37] E.Griffith
    38] Arguello
    39] Holyfield
    40] Kid Gavilan
    41] Hearns
    42] Napoles
    43] M.Ortiz
    44] L.Lewis
    45] Mayweather Jnr
    46] Calzaghe
    47] Britton
    48] Olivares
    49] M.Spinks
    50] Pacquiao
    51] Hopkins
    52] Wills
    53] Harada
    54] W.Gomez
    55] foster
    56] Villa
    57] Loughran
    58] R.Lopez
    59] Attell
    60] Al Brown
    61] C.Ortiz
    62] Dick Tiger
    63] Conn
    64] Perez
    65] Canto
    66] McGovern
    67] Trinidad
    68] Ted Kid Lewis
    69] Kid Chocolate
    70] Joe Brown
    71] Tiger Flower
    72] Cerdan
    73] Jeffries
    74] Pryer
    75] Basilio
    76] Dundee
    77] McLarnin
    78] T.Ryan
    79] McCallum
    80] Montgomery
    81] Beau Jack
    82] Freddie Welsh
    83] W.Benitez
    84] De La Hoya
    85] Barrera
    86] Gibbons
    87] Kilbane
    88] Blackburn
    89] Ambers
    90] Tyson
    91] H.Williams
    92] Liston
    93] Herman
    94] Philly Jack O'Brien
    95] LM Rodriquez
    96] Cervantes
    97] Zarate
    98] Driscoll
    99] Toney
    100]Galaxy
    101]Hatton
    102]Tszyu
    103]Rosenbloom
    104]Zale
    105]Vicente Salvador
    106]LaBarba
    107]Kid Williams
    108]Genero
    109]Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
    110]Battling Nelson
    111]B.Lynch
    112]La Motta
    113]Foreman
    114]Frazier
    115]Wolgast
    116]Loi
    117]Carpentier
    118]Locche
    119]Gushiken
    120]Kane
    121]Jersey Joe Walcott
    122]Dillon
    123]Marshall
    124]Graziano
    125]Delaney
    126]Camacho
    127]Sharkey
    128]J.Lynch
    129]Kingpetch
    130]Barry
    131]Buchanan
    132]Benvenuti
    133]Baer
    134]Jeanette
    135]Kessler
    136]Buff
    137]Coulon
    138]Chandler
    139]Dawson
    140]Wladimir Klitscko
    141]P.Jackson
    142]Morales
    143]Winky Wright
    144]Mosley
    145]Blackburn
    146]Griffo
    147]Kid Berg
    148]H.Johnson
    149]Elorde
    150]Norris
    151]Escobar
    152]Freddie Steele
    153]Azumah Nelson
    154]Bud Taylor
    155]Accavallo
    156]James J Corbett
    157]Bivins
    158]McFarland
    159]Moran
    160]Ohba
    161]H.Gonzalez
    162]JM Marquez
    163]Hamed
    164]Patterson
    165]Kid McCoy
    166]McGuigan
    167]Freddie Miller
    168]Carbajal
    169]F.Burns
    170]Winstone
    171]Levinsky
    172]Fullmer
    173]McAuliffe
    174]E.Pedroza
    175]Pintor
    176]Coulon
    177]Pal Moore
    178]Becerra
    179]Jung Koo Chang
    180]Fenech
    181]Honeyghan
    182]Collins
    183]Qawi
    184]John Henry Lewis
    185]Eubank
    186]Benn
    187]Saad Muhammed
    188]Bowe
    189]Schmeling
    190]Turpin
    191]Michalczewski
    192]Nunn
    193]Virgil Hill
    194]John L Sullivan
    195]Ritchie
    196]Barkley
    197]Lew Jenkins
    198]Chris John
    199]Ottke
    200]Bute

    Seen lots of top 100's on the net, but never a top 200 ?
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well done! I bet that wasn't fun...no way am I making a 200. I was pretty unhappy with my 100. It just gets to soft. It gets odd down around 60, it's to hard to draw distinctions for me.

    You got Jack Johnson at #10?
     
  3. stonerose

    stonerose Guest

    Pavlik above fighters like Pedroza and Morales is the first thing that stands out . Well done though .
     
  4. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I applaud you for your efforts, but I have a question at first glance about this list. Why do you have Roberto Duran, Jack Johnson, Sam Langfor and Bob Fitzsimmons above Muhammad Ali?
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Why on earth would you question Langford's being above Ali?! The man beat great fighters from welterweight to heavyweight, outpunched punchers, outboxed boxers, outgeneraled generals. I share your concerns about Johnson, that seems odd, but Duran and Langford? And Fitzsimmons?
     
  6. natonic

    natonic Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A top 200 seems like a mind boggling task so I applaud your effort and thank you for giving us something to look at in that regard. Obviously nobody is going to agree with everything in a top 200 list but I think it's a great effort and one i wouldn't even attempt. My initial 2 cents after a quick glance: Ali is a little too low and a couple current guys are a little too high IMO (Mayweather, Calzaghe). Great effort!
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I'd like to hear why Jack Dempsey (heavy) is above Jack Dempsey (middle). Never seen that before on this forum.
     
  8. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    He also lost a shitload of fights, but I see your point to some degree. Fitzsimmons does not deserve to be rated above the greatest, and frankly I'm not sure that I see a terribly strong argument for Duran being above him either.
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well I have Ali above Fitszimmons, but very, very close. Fitz had huge success against much bigger men and did the business in three weight divisions against some top fighters. I think it is reasonable to have Bob above Muhammad, definitely.

    Duran is the #1 at lightweight, has a win over a primed fighter at welter who is arguably the #2 or #3 at that weight, got all the way up to title status at middleweight. There's a terribly strong argumemt for sure. Ali has an astonishing resume, but he doesn't have the great record against bigger men that Duran has to go with his. It's checks and balances but success against bigger men is bound to be a consideration on any list that is trying to judge fighters on a pound for pound basis.
     
  10. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I never saw the best of Ali, when i was a boy Ali was coming to the end of his career, i remember him fighting Ken Norton for the 3rd time and was sure that Norton had won the fight {it seemed to me that Ali spent half the fight covering up on the ropes},
    Harry Carpenter if i remember right threaten to resign and never commentate again {respected British commentator} because he like me thought the result to be wrong ?
    The story of how years earlier Henry Cooper had knocked Ali down and how Angelo Dundee had split Ali's glove giving him vital extra time to recover was trotted out, these events plus watching him lose to Leon Spinks, Holmes and Berbick at the very end of his career did not make a good impression on me.
    Jack Johnson is a marvellous story {should make a film about him, if they have'nt already} how he chased the then heavyweight champion around the World to fight him,
    he does have a little bit of a reputation as a cherry picker, fighting some older, smaller boxers, but Jack Johnson was a monster of a man, he would have been bigger than virtually every opponent no matter who he faced ?, at the end of the day he had wins against Jeffries,Ketchel,Langford,Fitzsimmons,Burns and Jeannette !
    Pavlik is clearly to high i made this list before the Pavlik v Hopkins fight, infact i made the list straight after Hopkins/Calzaghe.
     
  11. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Roy Jones, Thomas Hearns, Floyd Mayweather Jr. and countless others have won titles in multiple divisions and have had huge success against bigger men. Does that mean they should all be rated above Ali too?

    The recurring theme that I'm seeing here, is your interest in beating bigger men. How can a natural heavyweight be held to these standards, when he's never had the opportunity to climb to a higher weight class? Simply put, he has hit the ceiling and thus can't partake in such a comparison. Now, what we can do, is look at how Ali was an enormous underdog against a slew of all time greats who predicted to beat him.. He defeated George Foreman, Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier who commonly appear on a lot of people's top 10 heavyweight list. He avenged 3 of his five losses, something Duran did not do, and has a far less padded record. He was also never manhandled in two rounds the way that Duran was against Hearns. Wrap it up with an olympic gold medal and claim to being his division's first three time champ, and I say you've got a winner.
     
  12. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Nonpareil Jack Dempsey fought in the 1880's very hard to gauge, i can only find 2 other boxers he fought on my list and he lost both by TKO {T.Ryan and Fitzsimmons}
    In fairness those fights was at the end of his career, 'classic' posters knowledge would far outweigh mine.
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Do we have to have this every time? You KNOW the difference between Duran's resume and Jones's.



    That is true, so what do you do, throw out the astonishing achievment of Duran's in his beating a large, punching middleweight for the title? Just ignore the fact that he beat these bigger men? Regard them based upon paper resume rather than reality? You are looking at this in entirely the wrong way - or rather a way that is biased towards Heavyweight to the detrement of every other division rather than the reverse.
     
  14. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    That wasn't my point.




    No, we don't ignore them. We acknowledge his accomplishments, while fairly weighing out other citeria to properly judge Ali, which I have provided.


    You mean I'm selectively picking and chosing criteria for judging fighters and placing greater value on it for the purpose of better suiting my argument? Good method isn't it:hey I think we're both pretty well versed in its use.
     
  15. natonic

    natonic Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I'm assuming you're looking for some feedback/critique. No way McGuigan rates higher than Pedroza despite the head to head win. Nor higher than Pintor, Saad Muhammed and others for that matter.