Top 30 Middleweights of all time

After the 1940's middle threads, I am sure you don't want to hear from me, but a few quick comments.

Steele--looked good for a short while but didn't sustain it, so #6 seems very high to me. Also, ends up on the short end to Apostoli, and never faces probably the other two top middles of the era, Yarosz and Thil.

Fullmer--should be in the top 20, I think. Very consistent, losing only to Robinson and Tiger over an 8 year period while beating a lot of good men.

Cerdan--might be rated too high, if you want to rate him at all. I would give him an * as too incomplete to rate.

Yarosz--I think should be much higher. Fought 11 champions and defeated 10 of them, with 13 wins overall against champions. The only champion he didn't beat was Ezzard Charles when Yarosz was 31 and slipping. Probably the most underrated middleweight.

Benvenuti--seems underrated to me. I always thought Robinson had the most impressive amateur and pro winning streak, but Benvenuti won all 120 of his amateur fights, and his first 65 pro fights, winning the world Jr. middle championship. He finally lost a very close decision to Kim Ki-Soo when 28. Beat Griffith 2 of 3. After he turned 30, he started to slip. Has a bad loss to Tiger fighting with a broken thumb. Finally lost his title to Monzon. I think he should be in the top 20 and perhaps top 15. Be interested in reasons why not.

LaMotta--still way overrated. Perhaps deserves a place in the top 30 off his win over the welter Robinson, but mainly a New York-Hollywood hype job.

Williams and Burley--why Burley higher? Williams beat Marshall 2 of 3 and ended up winning the last two decisions over Burley.

 

You can't lose what you never had!

 

Well the thing is he could quite conceivably beat the likes of even Hagler and Monzon so it sure puts you in a tight little corner mate hahaha. He's a H2H monster imo.

 

Nice list! SRR, Burley and Williams too high imo. RJJ too low if H2h is a factor. Perhaps Toney, too.

 

Burley weighed 151 to Charles160.25lbs for their first fight and 155 to Charles' 160lb for the second.
Basora was only153,5lbs to Charles160.25lbs.
I don't think Charles did so much at 160lbs.
Christoforidis and Overlin were good wins, but Ezz also lost to
Kid Tunero155.75lbs while weighing 162.75lbs.

 

Never went past ranking a top ten.

I base solely on h2h and I only rank a fighter in one division.

Marvin Hagler
Gennady Golovkin
Carlos Monzon
Bernard Hopkins
Harry Greb
Mike Gibbons
Dick Tiger
Jake LaMotta
Fred Apostoli
Freddie Steel

 

"Wasn't Steele very injured when he fought Apostoli?"

Not going into the fight. Apostoli was a brutal body puncher and broke Steele's beast-bone with a punch. In the first fight Apostoli was very green. Steele had a good run, but only over a rather brief period from 1934 to 1937, followed by a quick collapse. Also I question if he actually beat the best then out there. So #6 seems way over the top to me.

"Yarosz"--well, a lot of the other guys have "bad" losses also. I remember going through his resume trying to figure out how many victories over ever rated fighters he had, and it came out in the 30's. My guess is only Robinson and Griffith on this list beat more ever rated fighters and only Robinson beat more champions.

And why not Fullmer? I used to think he and LaMotta were a toss-up. Now I rate Gene distinctly better. For all of Compton's crabbing about his decisions, the press almost always agreed with the officials. There is nothing like that first Villemain debacle.

Is Benvenuti's resume deep enough? I'll try to check up and find out.

Burley beat Moore. So did Williams the first time, actually. Williams beat Marshall twice and Burley didn't. The two split against each other. But it is interesting that Williams lost 8 times to the Cocoa Kid, because the Kid lost to all sorts of guys over the years (58 defeats in all). Puts a cloud over Williams. The Murderer's Row crowd were certainly good, but how good is under a cloud because of 15 million men being in the service during WWII and their generally spotty records both before and after the war.

 

Did Charles ever beat Overlin? I don't think so.

 

"What is your source for a punch from Apostoli caused the injury to Steele?"

boxrec says "Steele broke his breast-bone in this fight which hampered him for some time to come."

I have seen quite a few other sources which also say he broke his breast-bone in this fight, but I was never his physician so I sure don't know. As for was this injury from a punch? Well, I can't say other that it is certainly the most logical explanation for such an injury and I have never read any other reason given.

"Steele"

In my judgment the best out there were Yarosz and Thil, two men he didn't beat.

"Fullmer"

I disagree with everything you said here,

but this is your list, so I won't make any more comments and am sorry I ever entered this thread.

 

No he lost and drew with him.

 

1938-01-07 : Freddie Steele 158¾ lbs lost to Fred Apostoli 161½ lbs by TKO at 0:54 in round 9 of 12

• Location: Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USA
• Referee: Arthur Donovan

• Steele broke his breastbone during this bout, which was to hamper him for some time to come.
• YouTube.com video: [1]

According to one unidentified newspaper account:

Blood came in a cascade from Freddie Steele’s left eye, the right was just a slit and in the middle of his face was a ring of red where once a nose had been. At times he was bent double, like a small boy peering through a knothole in a fence. That was the lurid scene, as presented before 8,000 spellbound witnesses at Madison Square Garden last night, when mercifully they stopped the fight after 54 seconds of the ninth round to save the middleweight champion of the world from further punishment.
It was one of the wildest, most boisterous evenings ever put on at the Garden. For sheer savagery there have been few fights like this one. They faced each other with lips curled back in a snarl and belted each other ceaselessly with both hands. It was the greatest middleweight fight seen around here in a generation, topping even the Greb-Walker brawl by many a sanguinary punch and of course, will have to be repeated outdoors next summer, this time with the title riding along.
Post fight comments

• "I knew I could do it. I've only lived the last three years to get that guy in the ring. Now if he doesn't give me a title fight I'll claim it anyway." -Fred Apostoli

• "We'll claim the title from hell to breakfast. If Steele wants a return match he'll have to take the challenger's cut. His claim to the crown isn't worth a plugged nickel after tonight." -Larry White, Apostoli's manager

• "I just was beginning to get right. It sent a terrific pain all over my lower body. I know Apostoli didn't do it on purpose, but it won the fight for him. After that I was strictly a catcher." -Freddie Steele, on the 7th round low blow from Apostoli.