Top 35 All Time reveal - Boxing Survey Series

Exactly. So for the purposes of the survey anyone above 147 and 160 or below is a middleweight. Because that’s how it was when there were only eight divisions and we’re only ranking people within the parameters of the original eight divisions.

It’s not a hard concept. But if you want to do it your way you have to go back and scratch out a lot of Ray Robinson’s accomplishments at middleweight and only consider fights where he weighed above 154. For instance.

 

No, for the purposes of the survey LMW exists, we just aren't ranking those fighters.

As you said, it realy isn't a hard concept.

 

Where was that stated?

Did Rummy say “Middleweight, 154.0001-160”?

 

154 is irrelevant.

What is relevant is if they competed in the MW division or not.

Gomez never achieved greatness as a FW. Lopez never did as a FLW.

 

Not to muddy the waters further but then you also have the difference between same day and day before weigh ins so guys who are middleweights now might be light heavyweights or even heavyweights by the standards of earlier eras. So I do think that them competing in the weight division they competed in when they competed (phew) is probably the fairest measure rather than crediting them with wins that never took place in one of those original divisions. It's an interesting point though and I don't wildly disagree with it as a concept but it's not how I personally rank fighters.

 

In a world where there are no junior divisions and only the eight — which is the world created for this survey — anything between welter and heavyweight is middleweight. Anything below the flyweight limit is a flyweight.

 

Imo, and since its Rummy's concept this is only my opinion, we haven't created a new world.

We have just chosen to focus on 8 divisions.

A more extreme version, if u do a thread asking for a HW top ten, that doesn't mean I'm creating a world where there is only one division thus Robinson can be ranked number 1 at HW. It means I'm not focusing on any of the other 17 divisions, I'm just interested in ranking HW fighters.

So in this concept, imo, the interest is not in the tweeners, its just the 8 divisions stated. But if a fighter is known for his dominance in the tweeners, and he's great enough, he might make an appearance in the top 25 P4P.

I've been a bit too vociferous in arguing this point in previous posts, obviously this is just all my interpretation, Rummy himself would have the actual answer as to whether or not Lopez inclusion is something he was intending to happen.

 

I think most seem to disagree with this line of reasoning. I could certainly argue that Joe Calzaghe is greater P4P than Bob Foster (and for my money he is), but I could never fathom that because he fought above 160 that he qualifies as a great LHW. I agree that the b@st@rd divisions make the water murky, but I personally could not justify equating his work at 168 as a LHW. I guess they are opinions at the end of the day and I imagine some share your thoughts, but a majority consensus would not agree. Either way good luck

 

I wouldn't so much say I hate the mode of thinking, but it does give an unfair advantage and actually it shifts the burden of proof unfairly.

If you're going to look into Flyweight history, you have the established greats on all the lists, you have to learn enough about other guys to knock them off their perch.

And for those who don't have a strong enough motivation that's actually quite a tall order.

And pointing things out as to why you disagree can actually mean that the same result occurs, i.e. Posters trust your opinion over theirs and therefore copy your list instead of say Nat's.

Really what needs to happen is people need to do their own research at a deep enough level.

That's why when you pointed out Wolgast to me being too low, I didn't just take your word for it, I looked into him in more detail again. which is easier when you are looking to include someone you might have missed.

Excluding an "established great" is much more onerous. Especially given how little love their is in the lower weight class.

I wouldn't call it goofy, more lazy.

 

But that’s a problem. It 100 percent favors guys from previous eras where there were only eight classes.

Jimmy Wilde fought as light as 100 pounds. If he had come along at a time with a strawweight division, it’s entirely possible he never would have fought at flyweight.

So a guy comes along in a different era and has that option open to him but by all means let’s not credit him as one of the best in the lightest division since we drew an arbitrary line and decided that he wasn’t a flyweight even though Wilde, who often fought lighter, was.

Transplant Lopez to Wilde’s day and he’s 100 percent a flyweight — what other option would he have? And his record suggests that he would have been pretty good at it (if 100-pound Wilde could compete at flyweight surely he could have done OK).

Let’s talk Henry Armstrong: is he one of the best 140-pounders of all time? He fought above 135 and at or below 140 with great success. There was a junior welterweight division during his time, too, although he didn’t pursue the title — so was he or wasn’t he a top-tier 140-pounder?

And, again I say, give me a list of all Jake LaMotta’s best wins where he weighed at or below 160 and beat someone who was above junior middle — true middleweight vs. true middleweight. It’s not that great a resume, is it? Yet we’re going to ignore that a lot of his wins came when he was over 160 and his opponent was a welter or junior middle and say ‘he was competing as a middleweight.’

It’s all so arbitrary.

If the point of this exercise wasn’t to determine our collective opinion of the top fighters to compete in the parameters of the original eight weight classes — say 135+ to 147 for welterweights — and to instead purposely exclude great fighters from eligibility because they came along at a time in history where there were junior classes and pretend they or those results don’t exist ... I’d rather be left out of it. I never would have participated if that had been spelled out.

 

Thank you, Rummy.

My disagreement with some posters on the mission and scope of that mission here is a simple difference in how we look at things. I did think about Aaron Pryor at welter and if I thought he was one of the top 15 I’d have put them there without hesitation.

And I defend those who went with Ricardo Lopez even though I, myself, did not have him in my top 15. But I see where they were coming from and think it’s 100 percent fair within the spirit and rule of this exercise to include any and all boxers who fought ‘between the lines’ of various weight classes — in the junior divisions, whether they existed or not at the time any particular fighter competed — to consider and include them.

I do not regret participating. It’s a wonderful thing you’re doing here.