Top 50 Heavyweights 1930-1960

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, May 16, 2018.


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  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I forgot about Baer vs Levinsky! That was for real if anything was. No headgear either. What was the deal with these affairs? Was there a code or Were the opponents double crossed? Did they start out friendly sessions that turned nasty? Or did everyone know ahead that it was a real fight but that because the commission was not involved there would be no announced decision?
     
    choklab, May 22, 2018
    choklab, May 22, 2018
    #46
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    1 - Joe Louis (1)
    2 - Rocky Marciano (2)
    3 - Sonny Liston (3)
    4 - Ezzard Charles (4)
    5 - Floyd Patterson (7)
    6 - Jersey Joe Walcott (6)
    7 - Max Schmeling (5)
    8 - Max Baer (9)
    9 - Elmar Ray (43)
    10 - Jack Sharkey (13)
    11 - Archie Moore (12)
    12 - Jimmy Bivins (18)
    13 - Ingemar Johansson (9)
    14 - Harold Johnson (14)
    15 - Zora Folley (20)
    16 - Eddie Machen (15)
    17 - Bob Pastor (25)
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    19 - Tommy Loughran (17)
    20 - Ernie Schaaf (23)
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    22 - Joey Maxim (27)
    23 - Larry Gains (26)
    24 - Rex Layne (19)
    25 - Steve Hamas (21)
    26 - James J Braddock (30)
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    28 - Arturo Godoy (31)
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    30 - Nino Valdes (30)
    31 - Tommy Jackson (32)
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    33 - Bob Baker (37)
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    Not too bad really, disagreement wise. Only five real disagreements, probably only three very serious ones.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
    McGrain, May 22, 2018
    McGrain, May 22, 2018
    #47
    SuzieQ49 likes this.
  3. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Well, I think in the case of the Louis fights with Toles and the others in 1935, it was probably that boxing "exhibitions" were staged as such in the early days to circumvent a law against "prize fights." But as the years passed, boxing became much more popular and acceptable, and so the anti-prize fight law just fell into the blue law class. The authorities had better things to do than enforce a law that no one cared about concerning a sporting event. But the legislature hadn't yet passed a new law. So real fights were "exhibitions."

    For folks outside the USA, the laws governing boxing were state laws, so there were 48 separate laws, which creates a lot of confusion for modern folks trying to push definitions into a one size fits all box.

    I wonder why the Baer-Levinsky fight just wasn't a sanctioned title fight? Baer was the champion and Levinsky a contender. Why fight an exhibition? Possibly it was just going to be a "go through the motions" exhibition but the two lost their heads. Anyone know what the situation was?
     
    edward morbius, May 22, 2018
    edward morbius, May 22, 2018
    #48
    choklab likes this.
  4. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Valdes was never accepted as a pro right in any ring record book so it doesn’t count
     
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    #49
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    No it doesn’t count. It wasn’t a real fight. Fighters often held back in exhibitions. Glorified sparring sessions.

    Find me one record book which lists Valdes Louis as an official pro fight
     
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    #50
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    If there was judges present at the exhibition, then technically it was a pro bout. No judges were present at most of Louis exhibitions
     
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    #51
  7. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    No judges were present. So not a real pro fight. Sorry.
     
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    #52
  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Big disagreement with Ray it seems. Why so low at 43? He defeated prime versions of Walcott and Charles at age 36
     
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    #53
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Ah sorry! I thought you had him at 43!! I couldn't figure wtf you were up to.

    I have him at 9, you have him at 10.

    I'll update.
     
    McGrain, May 22, 2018
    McGrain, May 22, 2018
    #54
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    No worries here is our list again


    1--Joe Louis
    2--Rocky Marciano
    3--Sonny Liston
    4--Ezzard Charles
    5--Max Schmeling
    6--Jersey Joe Walcott
    7--Floyd Patterson
    8--Max Baer
    9--Ingemar Johansson
    10--Elmer Ray
    11--Billy Conn
    12--Archie Moore
    13--Jack Sharkey
    14--Harold Johnson
    15--Eddie Machen
    16--Primo Carnera
    17--Tommy Loughran
    18--Jimmy Bivins
    19--Rex Layne
    20--Zora Folley
    21--Steve Hamas
    22--Nino Valdes
    23--Ernie Schaaf
    24--Lou Nova
    25--Bob Pastor
    26-- Larry Gains
    27--Joey Maxim
    28--Lee Q Murray
    29--Turkey Thompson
    30--Jimmy Braddock
    31--Joe Baksi
    32-- Hurricane Jackson
    33--Melio Bettina
    34--Clarence Henry
    35--Roscoe Toles
    36--Bob Satterfield
    37--Bob Baker
    38--Tommy Farr
    39--Lee Savold
    40--Paulino Uzcuden
    41--Arturo Godoy
    42--Buddy Baer
    43--John Holman
    44--Walter Neusel
    45--Henry Cooper
    46--Roy Harris
    47--Lem Franklin
    48--Alberto Lovell
    49--Roland Lastarza
    50--Tami Mauriello
     
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    #55
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Looks like lastarza is our biggest disagreement then.

    Roland has the type of record when you look closely you see it was overrated.

    His entire career was prrtty much based off nearly beating Marciano in 1950, marcianos first fight back from the vingo tragedy. The rest of his career is pedestrian...

    He beat number 2 rated layne in 1953, but most of the papers and myself believe layne won. Layne was also erratic by this point losing as often as he was winning.

    He spit 1-1 with Dan Bucceroni, a good but not great contender of the era.

    He beat Brion in a stinker, the New York Times ripped into both men

    He went 1-1 with club fighter Rocky Jones. These fights really put into question lastarza. Jones dominated him in the first bout. In the 2nd bout, Lastarza was floored and beaten up the first two rounds. I have a few sources who stated in between rounds, Jones was told to “cool it” by the mob, because he was going to destroy a planned lastarza Marciano title fight.

    He never beat any of the outstanding contenders of the era....Moore, Valdes, Charles, Henry, Johnson, baker, satterfield, Jackson, Walcott, Louis, and Holman.


    He basically rode the coat tails of the first Marciano fight to keep his high rating. His manager screamed robbery for three years, until Marciano rematches him to provide any doubt of superiority. During that time, he turned down a lot of big fights with contenders, fought mostly B level fighters and struggled when he stepped up in competition.

    Post Marciano title fight, the rest of his career was an absolute disaster

    We still included him because he was a good boxer who almost took the “0” from Marciano, but We don’t believe he accomplished enough based on our criteria to rate higher
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 22, 2018
    #56
  12. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think you confused our list with the other one that was posted, because I think you are replying to us.

    We didn't disagree that much on Elmer Ray. We ranked him 10th. Nor Carnera. We ranked him 16th.

    You didn't color Valdes, but he had a pretty big drop. I hope you and Suzie debate your placement of LaStarza above Valdes. That should create fireworks. Why did you rate Roland above Nino, if I might ask?

    Jack Sharkey--I think a reasonable rating. He was the champion, and beat guys like Wills and Godfrey. What weakened him for us was the dubious quality of his win over Schmeling. But there are a lot of disputed decisions out there and I can see just accepting the official verdict for everyone. It was just that this decision is on film and seems more questionable than most. But I have no big dispute with you on Sharkey.

    Maxie Rosenbloom--I didn't think he did enough at heavy to overcome some bad losses like twice to Hank Hankinson. He did finish strong, with a win over a young Nova, and a draw with Pastor. I just didn't think that he did as much at heavy as our other guys either in quality or quantity.

    Neusel--interesting. Why that high?

    Farr--Ok. I can see that rating.

    Nova--two big stoppages of Baer put him higher for me, but he did fall quite a bit after the Louis fight.

    Layne, Hamas, Schaaf, Maxim, Gains--these guys were all close. What I went with to separate them was that the champions they defeated were at or near the top of the heavyweight division at the time. Gains beat Schmeling as an unknown teenager. Maxim beat Patterson when Floyd was a teenage prospect weighing 164. I rated Layne first among this group because his wins against Walcott and Charles were when they were top men. I can certainly see an argument for Hamas above Layne as Hamas beat everyone he fought. I think only Marciano matches that on our list.
     
    edward morbius, May 22, 2018
    edward morbius, May 22, 2018
    #57
    SuzieQ49 likes this.
  13. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I am only referring to the 1935 fights which The Ring Record Book (and by the way, other writers of the time like Paul Gallico) accepted as real fights.

    The late forties fights, and the Johnny Davis affair in 1944, were truly exhibitions, even if occasionally these were shooting matches for some reason.

    I agree with you that they shouldn't weigh in the balance.

    The Toles fight of 1935 is a different issue.
     
    edward morbius, May 22, 2018
    edward morbius, May 22, 2018
    #58
  14. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Finally...
    Louis
    Marciano
    Liston
    Charles
    Walcott
    Sharkey
    Schmeling
    Patterson
    Johansson
    Moore

    Loughran
    Baer m
    Johnson
    Bivins
    Maxim
    Ray
    Folley
    Machen
    Pastor
    Thompson

    Murray
    Schaff
    Henry
    Poreda
    Baker
    Farr
    Mauriello
    Godoy
    Stribling
    Rosenbloom

    Lovell
    Toles
    Baski
    Nova
    Layne
    Valdez
    Lewis
    Cooper
    Jackson
    Neusel

    Gains
    Harris
    Pastrano
    Uzcuden
    Savold
    Bettina
    Lesnevich
    Sys
    Tangberg
    Retzlaff
     
    mattdonnellon, May 22, 2018
    mattdonnellon, May 22, 2018
    #59
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah suzy thankfully straitened that up with me above. Thankfully. Who has Ray at 40?

    Brion, Layne, Bucceroni and Jones plus that first brilliant tilt at the Rock, I think that's quite pretty.

    Appraising Rosenbloom is desperate. What to make of his 1931 loss to Manley, for example?

    But Rosenbloom, I think, deserved the nod against Pastor. He beat Al Ettore, Lou Nova, Lee Ramage and King Levinsky as well as besting title challenger John Henry Lewis in an often dull series at heavyweight. I think he did enough to get in despite the strangeness.

    30-0-2 up front is very nice, and when he hit American shores (From memory) he beat King Levinsky who was in absolutely inspired form when they met and he landed that razor thin victory over Tommy Loughran. Chuck in two wins over Peterson and Heuser and I think he just about survives the prime losses to Carnera, Farr and Schmeling.
     
    McGrain, May 22, 2018
    McGrain, May 22, 2018
    #60
    edward morbius likes this.
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