Top 50 Heavyweights 1930-1960

How is it a layoff? In the ten months After knocking out Valentino Louis fought another 29 times before going into training camp for Charles! Some layoff.

He fought Johnny Flyn, Rex Layne x2, Valdes x2, Henry Hall, Roscoe Tolles, Clarance Henry. Among them Walter Hafer, Al Housman, Pat Valentino and Nino Valdes were all knocked out.

If Louis wanted more “real fights” he had at least 3 real knockouts behind him before he fought Charles.

 

Of course he would not. But it’s what Louis does in these affairs that counts. If he is using the experience to demonstrate the fullest of his ability representing the world champion before a paying audience then he is utilising his full ability in a capacity as champion. The experience is exercising his ability. Maintaining his sharpness. These are not sparring sessions or friendly demonstrations if guys are being stretchered out of the ring. He is demonstrating his full ability without the title on the line.

 

I have limited time right now, so I might post again on this, but here goes for a start--

I have a hard time seeing Sharkey over Schmeling. His "victory" was very disputed, and Schmeling was the more consistent and that, plus the big win over Louis, moves him well above Sharkey for me. The rest of the top ten is okay with me,

but no Carnera at all? Do you buy into almost all his fights are fixes, including his decisions over name fighters in the 1931 to 1934 period, and the KO of Sharkey? I can't go that far.

Pastor--why ahead of Conn who KO'd him? And no Conn at all? Lesnevich over Conn?

Thompson--I like Thompson as a puncher, and he had some big wins, but he was also erratic, and seemed to be one of those guys who either blew you out early, or struggled with you later. His position seems high to me.

You have Henry a lot higher than we rated him. I posted earlier on this thread about Henry. He didn't really have a win that was that big. He failed against the two champions, Johnson and Moore, he fought. So many others have far bigger wins, and often a couple of them. Also, while he didn't have a lot of losses, he retired after only 41 fights. A lot of others, like for example, Layne, would have had far fewer losses if they stopped after 41 fights.

Mauriello--was one of those WWII guys who didn't do much after the war. I personally didn't think his record justifies a higher rating, but he was rated consistently near the top, beat a lot of names or semi-names, and had decent fights against some of the top men, although rarely winning.

Stribling--deserves a post on his own, which I will try to give tonight. I think kind of a hollow contender at heavy.

Pastrano--better at light-heavy. Didn't beat that many heavies who were above the pretty good fringe contender level. His best heavyweight names, Layne and Holman, were slipping badly by the time he got to them.

I like some of the names you considered, such as Ole Tandberg and Charley Retzlaff.

John Henry Lewis--really a light-heavy. Did very little actually at heavy. Hard to see him rated above Conn at heavy.

Jimmy Braddock--doesn't even make the top fifty? Seems kind of harsh, although I think he caught all the breaks to ever become champion.

 

Louis
Marciano
Liston
Charles
Walcott
Sharkey
Schmeling
Patterson
Johansson
Moore

Loughran
Baer m
Johnson
Bivins
Maxim
Ray
Folley
Machen
Conn
Pastor

Carnera
Thompson
Murray
Schaff
Henry
Poreda
Baker
Farr
Mauriello
Godoy

Stribling
Rosenbloom
Lovell
Toles
Baski
Nova
Layne
Valdez
Lewis
Cooper

Jackson
Neusel
Gains
Harris
Uzcuden
Braddock
Savold
Bettina
Lesnevich
Sys


Tangberg, Retzlaff...
Revised list! I missed Carnera and Conn from my final list, me bad, thanks!
I know I'm in the minority on Sharkey-Schmeling but in their two meetings Jack totaly outboxed the German in their first meeting until the foul and the disputed second looked pretty even to me but I didn't see all the rounds. Even so the AP poll of reporters came up with 8-6-1 in rounds to Max and two of 25 gave the nod to Sharkey.The Louis win is massive but the Carnera, Wills, Godfrey and Loughran match any of Max's other wins. Sharkey went from 1925 to the 1933 Carnera loss with 27 fights, mainly against top fighters and only lost to Dempsey, Max(foul) and Risko, not near as inconsistent as claimed, remember Schmeling lost to Daniels, Hamas, and Baer too.
Pastrano and Lewis were mainly l/heavy I agree but their is a lot of similar guys in the top 50, and looking close at Pastrano i agree and I took him out the back and shot him. Lewis I'm pretty content with but a lot of the fighters 35-50 could be swapped up or down, Stribling was operating at heavy for around 5 years and beat a slew of decent fighters like Gorman, Rosenbloom, Von Porat, Loughran, Griffith, Wiggins etc. Mauriello I feel you could look at again, he had longevity, consistancy and good wins over Nova, Savold, Barlund, Woodcock, a draw with Pastor and a lot of fringe guys. Thanks again for the corrections and critique.

 

BTW I agree on LaStarza, a few people not in top 50 lists accomplished more than him. I excluded him completely.

 

"Uzcudun was most likely top 15 of the nineteen-thirties"

I don't know if that puts him higher than #40 on this list though.

"I thought he was a bit older than 20"

That was Vingo's given age.

"I'd prefer him rather than to rank light-heavyweights in it."

Well, Moore was also ranked at heavyweight, at #1 actually, and beat a lot of heavyweights, and carried heavyweight poundage a lot. Conn and Johnson also accomplished a lot at heavyweight. There was a comment on another thread that the issue is not what you weigh, but what your opponents weigh. That was basically our position. If you weigh under 175 but your opponents are much heavier, even well over 200, I think you can be considered to be fighting at heavyweight.

 

"Sharkey-Schmeling"

Well, our thinking was it also matters who does better against the field. Certainly the Daniels loss is bad, but the Louis victory is so imposing that I view it as pretty much overwhelming. But also which other common opponent did Sharkey do better against? Risko? Sharkey split with him. Walker? Sharkey drew with him? Stribling? Schmeling KO'd all these guys. What it boils down to is that Schmeling was the much more dangerous puncher, and the more consistent, although both could be in and out a bit. I can't see giving Sharkey the edge off a disputed decision and being ahead of the always slow-starting Schmeling after three rounds, when Schmeling has the great Louis KO on his resume.

Mauriello--well, he made our list, but barely. There are some good results, like Savold, Oma, and Pastor, but he lost all four times to Lesnevich, went out in the first to Louis, lost to Bivins and Baksi, etc., while names like Barlund and Nova seem to have been fading badly by the time he beat them. We found his stat record better than his actual accomplishments, but he is one of those guys who can be disputed.

 

Stribling has a tremendous stat record. Most of his top wins, such as Loughran and Rosenbloom, were at light-heavy. The heavies, Gorman, Griffiths, Von Porat, Scott, etc. are good, but the other guys on our list beat better men, I think. The really top heavies, Sharkey, Schmeling, Schaaf handled Stribling pretty easily.

The stat record though is pretty puffed up.

The Carnera "victory" was on a foul at best, and was a fix at worst.

I stay with the opinion that Stribling shouldn't make the top fifty.

By the way, rather extensive footage of the Schmeling fight is available. It certainly shows why Stribling was known to some as "Willie the Clutch." His whole style seems to be to throw a punch and then clinch, or don't bother with the punch and just clinch.

 

I'm not a mad advocate of Stribling, i think his driver actually fought him in hick towns to boost his record but fellas like Gorman, Von Porat, Griffiths were legitimate contenders in an era we-the forum- haven't delved into that much as far as I am aware. I mean Griffiths himself was surely a top 40-60 of this period, Bud Gorman beat Sharkey in his next fight and Risko is a decent win to plus a load of fringe contenders. Plus he didn't lose all that often...

 

I accept I'm in the minority on the Sharkey-Schmeling thing, I just think Jack was a beautiful box-fighter while Max was undoubtedly a bigger puncher-but this isn't a puncher list.
As for Tami he did floor Louis before going out but Gus certainly had his number, the first two at l/heavy. I think you can big-up or knock most of our picks after about the top 25. Of your lower picks Uzcuden I feel is overrated, Satterfield is like Oma to me, I can't figure how to place him, LaStarza I'd leave out, Gains too thin a resume for that high a rating and Valdez flattered also. But that's just my opinion.

 

Should have said nearly floored Louis!