Top 50 Lightweights of All-Time.... (help me)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by George Crowcroft, Oct 22, 2020.


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  1. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    More detailed reply down the road, but...on the clock. :oops:
     
    IntentionalButt, Oct 23, 2020
    IntentionalButt, Oct 23, 2020
    #61
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  2. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I understand that, but it is very hard if not impossible to gauge the quality of their opposition.
    Some big names in an era might be just average Joes in another era.
    Take Zora Folley as an example. He was a top contender in the 60s. He wouldn't have been one in the 70's, 80s and 90s.
     
    Johnny_B, Oct 23, 2020
    Johnny_B, Oct 23, 2020
    #62
  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I'm fairly sure everyone here would agree it's easier to read how someone was ranked in their own era, than theorise how they'd do in a round robin of every other lightweight in history.
     
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    #63
  4. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    One upper echelon win doesn't get you too far in the lightweight division.

    But if I'm wrong in ignoring his win over a hopelessly old Dixon, or there's more to him than the win over Gans, I'm all ears.
     
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    #64
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well he beat Lavigne and Gans, and pushed Erne to the absolute brink all within a few months of each other. That year he met the toughest murderer's row ever faced at the weight as far as I'm concerned, met Gans a bunch of times, Erne and Lavigne...I see though that you have Lavigne much lower than would be considered normal so maybe don't count that as a top win.

    More than that though, I'd say he holds not just "a top echelon win" but the greatest win in lightweight history. Nobody beat prime Gans clean apart from McFadden - it's literally just him. Looking down the list who are you going to see that's achieved anything even mildly approaching such a feat. Gans and Louis are neck and neck. Where do you have Schmeling? Norton? Beating prime Gans alone would be enough to bring him into the orbit of the likes of guys like DeJesus. What is DeJesus's second best win and how does it compare with the second best win of Elbows?

    You have Floyd Mayweather above Elbows McFadden for Christ sake - why? For going life and death with Castillo? McFadden, literally, fought Joe Gans more times than Floyd Mayweather had fights at the weight. This cannot be defended by anything other than head to head considerations.
     
    McGrain, Oct 23, 2020
    McGrain, Oct 23, 2020
    #65
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  6. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Sorry, I bollocksed up the first post. I meant Lavigne, not Dixon.

    I'd quite comfortably take the primed verison of Ishimatsu over the Lavigne who would only win two more fights in his career. I have Norton/Schmeling around 20, and that's in a much shallower division.

    Maybe so, it could very well be the best win in lightweight history (I'd rate Kilbane vs Leonard higher, though - I think Leonard is better H2H and greater, and Kilbane being much smaller males it more impressive. I guess you could argue that it doesn't count due to Kilabne being a feather) but you do realise it could well just be a fluke? Gans beat him clearly in their other fights.

    Mayweather above McFadden? Maybe I'm wrong there, but I don't think it's ridiculous. This is only a draft. But keep in mind my criteria includes 'eye test', and while there's no footage of McFadden, I'd bet an extremely large amount on Maywather looking better. That said, if you're critiquing Mayweather for life and death with Castillo, then surely it's fair to point out McFadden's numerous losses.
     
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    #66
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It's more about levels and trial by. If Castillo, Ndou and Sosa on their own plus eye test somehow outweighs beating and drawing with Gans alone, that is a lot of weight on the eye test IMO. Gans is only 1 or 2 all time and was in his prime. My guess is that if I placed any stress on these levers to analyse your list they would break, though maybe not (i'm not doing that btw).

    Lavigne - he retired one fight later but it's worth looking at who he lost to. It's only absolutely world class guys who are beating him, and Lagvine comes off as very, very fresh in the reads - there's little about his being busted or looking slow or any of that stuff. He may have lost a step, but McFadden himself - who fought, as i've said, the toughest year in lightweight history maybe - ranked him as a very serious opponent, one of the best he mixed with, and far and away the best puncher. Whoever he was, he was still a major test.
     
    McGrain, Oct 23, 2020
    McGrain, Oct 23, 2020
    #67
  8. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    I think Ishimatsu Suzuki is too high - he had some impressive-sounding wins but his record at lightweight was very spotty. His loss to DeJesus I think is more instructive than wins over an aged Buchanan and Rodolfo Gonzalez. Sorry to bang on about Arguello, but as a point of comparison he should probably be higher and could switch places with Suzuki.
     
    Jel, Oct 23, 2020
    Jel, Oct 23, 2020
    #68
  9. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    George, since I do tend to lean head-to-head you can pretty much disregard my picks. I look at passing the eye-test, taking into consideration age, scartissue, weight and politics that may have kept a fighter at arms length of the big prize. A whole lot of factors that I may consider important that others would not. Anyways, for your 16-50 - if you're in the mood for research - you may want to check out, in no apparent order.

    Mando Ramos
    Rodolfo Gonzalez
    Pedro Montanez
    Freddie Dawson
    George Araujo
    Kenny Lane
    Carlos Hernandez
    Duilio Loi
    Nicolino Loche
    Davey Day
     
    scartissue, Oct 23, 2020
    scartissue, Oct 23, 2020
    #69
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  10. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm certainly no expert on the lightweights, but a couple things jump out at me; first, I'd have Whitaker a number of spots higher; he was beating real contenders at 135 for a good year or so before he won the title, and held it for about three years I think. Given his skillset added to that, I would have him no lower than about 6th.

    Given your criteria about no head-to-head considerations, I can see why Chavez is rated as low as he is, which is kind of a pity. Though he didn't stay there long, I think 135 is where we saw probably the best version of the best Mexican fighter ever; I think he takes the measure of most every lightweight.
     
    salsanchezfan, Oct 23, 2020
    salsanchezfan, Oct 23, 2020
    #70
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  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Hey, it's not a hill I'm willing to die on.
     
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    #71
  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Good mention, this one was the first draft so I didn't skim over every guy and compare them with those around him. I do consider Ishimatsu very good though, and I think that the verisons of Buchanan and Gonzalez were still brilliant fighters.
     
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    #72
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  13. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Yeah I've got that alot about how I rate Whitaker, both at lightweight and P4P. I think people see it as me underrating him as a fighter, but really it's just that I seem to rate fighters differently to most, and that I don't really rate those which he beat.

    Yeah, Chavez is a beast H2H (overrated though, IMO) but I should say something which I didn't include in the OP. Since lots of fights happen above the poundage, I like to include fights between two guys I'd rate at lightweight, in their lightweight rankings. So like Duran vs DeJesus. Meaning I based Chavez's fights with Whitaker and Camacho into his rankings. The Whitaker fight did nothing for him, positive or negative, but the Camacho fight adds quite a bit to him.
     
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Oct 23, 2020
    #73
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  14. Bujia

    Bujia Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Some brief resumes to help you differentiate between some of the guys I mentioned:


    Joe Mandot, 64-21-21:

    Johnny Dundee X2
    Johnny Kilbane
    Owen Moran
    Charley White
    Ad Wolgast
    Philadelphia Pal Moore
    Mexican Joe Rivers X2


    Joe Shugrue, 59-22-9:

    Freddie Welsh X2
    Owen Moran
    Charley White
    Leach Cross X2
    Philadelphia Pal Moore X2
    Benny Leonard (very young)


    Lockport Jimmy Duffy, 97-18-30:

    Jack Britton X2
    Ted Kid Lewis
    Freddie Welsh X2
    Johnny Dundee
    Frankie Schoell
    Charley White
    Joe Shugrue
    Patsy Cline
    Matt Wells X2
    Bryan Downey
    Leach Cross X2
    Knockout Brown
    Soldier Bartfield


    Richie Mitchell, 54-13-12:

    Freddie Welsh
    Johnny Kilbane X2
    Ad Wolgast
    Patsy Cline
    Mexican Joe Rivers
    Mel Coogan
    Patsy Brannigan
    Ever Hammer


    Charley White, 123-35-13:

    Freddie Welsh
    Johnny Dundee X3
    Frankie Schoell
    Willie Ritchie
    Owen Moran
    Richie Mitchell X2
    Joe Shugrue X2
    Ad Wolgast
    Matty Baldwin
    Philadelphia Pal Moore X2
    Johnny Tillman
    Matt Wells X3
     
    Bujia, Oct 23, 2020
    Bujia, Oct 23, 2020
    #74
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  15. ChrisJS

    ChrisJS Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Camacho was miles past his best coming into that fight. It was just a match of names.
     
    ChrisJS, Oct 23, 2020
    ChrisJS, Oct 23, 2020
    #75
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