top ten greatest UK heavyweights

Couple of things Phil. Jones didn't drop Ali, I think you mean Sonny Banks but that was early in his career. I'm not a fan of Cooper but he was World top 10 and carried one of Boxing's finest left hooks.

 

Interesting thread. Don’t know how people are rating Whyte so highly. I’d consider myself a fan too, been to a lot of his fights.

Ranking him in the top 10 and excluding David Haye is even more ridiculous.

Personally, I agree that active fighters should be excluded but even so.

 

Haye Top 5 Wins

Barrett
Valuev
Ruiz
Harrison
Chisora


Whyte Top 5 Wins

Helenius
Browne
Parker
Chisora x 2
Rivas

Leaving H2H ability to one side, I don't think either heavyweight resumé is ridiculously better than the other.

Whyte has a reasonable argument to be a top 6-10 British heavyweight. While that may not quite feel right, world-class wins by most British heavyweights are few and far between. Other than the obvious names, there aren't too may British heavyweights who beat a consensus prime top 5 heavyweight like Parker.

 

If he does mean Doug Jones, then Jones was a top 5 heavyweight at the time.

 

It wasn't prime Bugner, but arguably his mid 80s run was the best sequence of wins in his career (Tillis, Bey, Page).

Bugner was a very good fighter who fought in a stacked era. I think the biggest knock on him is not that he lost to Ali and Frazier, but that he generally fell short against the next rung down (eg Shavers and Lyle). Prime Bugner Vs Bruno would have been a very interesting fight.

 

Browne was shot to pieces and never much good anyway, likewise helenius. Parker was controversial. As was Chisora 1 and he was losing Chisora 2, a worse version of Chisora than Haye sparked years earlier. What’s Rivas done? Whyte also got ironed out by Joshua.

Haye was WBA champion, something Whyte is unlikely to achieve.

 

Not saying Whyte should be ranked above Haye, but you can literally tear apart 90% of any boxer’s resume if you wanted to.

 

I agree and Haye’s heavyweight resume is thin, he only fought there 7 times (before his ill fated comeback) but you’ve got to consider context.

 

You have to consider context, but you also should take a balanced, consistent approach.

If Whyte's wins can be dissected and discredited, so to can Haye's if you're that way inclined. Barrett was a journeyman who got bombed out by a flat blob and a guy whose only previous claim to fame was as a Mike Tyson lookalike. Ruiz was shot to ****. Chisora was on the worst run of losses in his career. Haye ran like a thief against Valuev who had barely scraped past shot versions of Ruiz and Holyfield. Harrison was prizefighter level when Haye beat him. The WBA title can't be a big deal if the guy on Whyte's record who was never that good won it as well.

Applying a more objective lens, Haye's wins and Whyte's wins are much of the same. Unconvincing wins over top 5 fighters, and more impressive wins against fringe contenders, journeymen and faded world-ranked fighters. Both lost convincingly to the best guy they fought. There's no overwhelmingly great wins on either record that would put one well above the other.

For what it's worth, I think prime for prime Haye takes out Whyte in much the same way he did Chisora. Fantasy H2H is not relevant though if we're comparing resumes.

 

I can see what you are saying but think you’re taking things out of context.

One of the defeats in that worst run of defeats was a robbery against Helenius, a fighter who Whyte looked like crap against, despite Helenius just showing up for a pay day. Another was a solid effort in a WBC title shot. As for the WBA belt Browne briefly held, it had been superseded by the “super” belt at that stage.

You’ve also got to consider the manner of defeats and victories. Haye clearly beat a reigning World champion in Valuev, he beat an admittedly shot Ruiz to a pulp, he destroyed a better version of Chisora than Whyte struggled with twice (I felt he lost the first). Yes, Haye was well beaten by Klitschko but it wasn’t some one sided beat down. Whyte was ironed out by AJ. All of this also ignores Haye’s achievements at cruiser. Parker was a good win for Whyte but it was razor close and controversial (I was there supporting him).

But I do think it’s better to judge Whyte when his career is over. If it ended tomorrow he wouldn’t be rated as highly as David Haye for me. And to include Whyte but exclude Haye from a top 10 at this stage is nuts.

 

I am indeed taking things out of context to discredit Haye, as you were with Whyte (not suggesting deliberately though). As an example, you ignored the end result of Whyte-Chisora II (Whyte was losing), but only considered the end result of Whyte-Joshua (Whyte got ironed out). If you're being balanced and consistent, you'd need to apply the same standard to both.

It's reasonable to pick apart Browne's spurious claim to be any kind of world heavyweight champion, but the same critical eye would need to scrutinise the questionable lineage of Haye's WBA title, which was based on beating a guy who won a titled vacated because the guy who beat him decided to fight against (and lose to) the guy holding the other belts.

It really depends on the criteria people choose to apply. The starting point in my view should be an objective assessment to wins and losses, and then apply the subjective criteria as appropriate after that. If someone is more dominant or impressive beating fighter A, that should count in their favour. It shouldn't be used however to plug holes in someone's resume, which often appears to be the case when discussing Haye.

 

This is going to go round and round but just wanted to add that I did initially include more on Whyte vs AJ but deleted to make it more concise. Whyte got whooped. He landed one hook and in the grand scheme of things it had little impact, yet this mythical left hook has somehow gained in legend overtime and rewritten boxing history. He was never going to win that fight and didn’t look like doing so at any point. I do think Whyte has got better since but he gets ironed out again in a rematch, if it happens.

I feel I am being objective. Haye’s heavyweight resume is limited but he’s still one of the best we’ve had in Britain in terms of achievements. We don’t have many great heavyweights. He won a legitimate world title, if Whyte has done that at the end of his career then he’ll be in my top 10 and quite possibly above Haye but would have to wait and see how his career pans out.

The one common opponent they have is Chisora. Haye won by stoppage comprehensively after winning every round, though he was being made to work. Whyte fought a more shopworn version and lost the first but got a dodgy decision. He was losing the second but scored a great knockout in the late stages of the fight, though it was soured somewhat by dodgy refereeing and scorecards again.

 

No worries. Fine to agree to disagree.

My general thoughts on Haye are that the significance of winning a title in the alphabet era gets overrated, and that his achievements fall some way short of his peak abilities. Appreciate that not everyone will have the same view.

 

Absolutely agree Momus. It was very difficult to know what you were going to get from Joe. The version that walked straight through Richard Dunn or clobbered Jurgen Blin in their rematch would have seriously damaged Bruno.