Top Ten Head 2 Head HW list

Sorry, I dont actually believe Lewis's chin can be called suspect. We have all of Lewis's fights, we have sufficient material and facts, we know enough to gauge the quality of his chin. Of course, opinions founded on those facts do differ.

As for Johnson, I do suspect his chin may not stand up as well as Lewis's. I dont have enough evidence to say one way or another. Did any huge hitters nail him flush ? If so, what happened ?

That could be said about many fighters. He's unique, along with many others.

Fair enough.

Beating one of the first really big men is reason to rate him highly over later fighters who I assume you acknowledge beat several "really big men" ??
Of course, beating an over-the-hill five years inactive 6'2, 227 pounder is only remarkable because he beat so many smaller men.

Haven't seen those 15 rounds, but I doubt there were many punches thrown.
Sure, a prime Johnson could have beat Jess Willard, but that's not enough to get rated as anything special head-to-head. How many heavyweights prime-for-prime would you pick to beat Willard ?

Maybe so.
But so are Arturo Godoy, Jimmy Young and Chris Byrd.

Against who did Johnson "find a way" to win that so impresses you ?
BTW, bullets would not have bounced off him. Or Ali for that matter.

That's a massive understatement.

 

Head to Head to me doesn't mean who would beat everyone, because everyone has someone who can defeat them even at their best, my head to head list goes towards who I believe would beat the most memorable fighters and ATG's at the weight. Note that I take era/era into consideration here without my inherrant, but very factual bias against the older era fighters and I left my actual ATG rankings in brackets as well:

1. Mike Tyson{10}
2. Sonny Liston{9}
3. Joe Louis{1}
4. Muhammad Ali{2}
5. Larry Holmes{3}
6. Evander Holyfield{7}
7. George Foreman{5}
8. Riddick Bowe{19}
9. Joe Frazier{6}
10. Lennox Lewis{12}

Now, I am sure some posters have questions about some of my choices and I will gladly discuss them under a civil format.

 

I like Tyson too, but No. 1? Maybe he was the best 6 round heavyweight in history H2H, but over the last 6 he wasn't anything special.

PS-No love for the Brockton Blockbuster? (Not aimed at you in particular, Amsterdam)

 

I have roughly the same fighters in my top 10, though in somewhat different order. Tyson #1- above Ali, Liston, Holmes etc from a head-to-head viewpoint? :huh

I'd also have Lewis and Frazier higher, and Bowe wouldn't be on the list. A good list despite that. :good

 

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Jack Dempsey
4 Sonny Liston
5 Larry Holmes
6 George Foreman
7 Joe Frazier
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Mike Tyson
10 Lennox Lewis

 

I'm not really a Tyson fan per say, I always have had an interest in him(who doesn't), but I am absolutley convinced that he'll take 95% of HW's at his best, even guys like Foreman with styles advantages.

He already scalped Holmes, I feel he'd have gotten Holmes in his prime also. I also feel he easily takes Lewis, Frazier, Foreman, Louis etc. due to his significant advantages and intangibles and I don't buy into the current underrating of him due to his later career mess in and out of the ring.

I hold Holmes highly, I'd in fact pick him to outpoint a peak Ali. In fact, I pick Tyson, Holmes, Louis over Ali, but Ali defeats more than Holmes would in the same token, guys like Holyfield, and he already has his victories over Frazier and Foreman and I feel he'd take Bowe with ease also(I rate a peak Bowe as a H2H force, but I don't rank him otherwise very well).

Frazier would have major issue's with Vitali Klitschko level guys even, but he smashes a guy like Lennox and would be 50/50 with Holmes.

Holyfield defeats a good amount also.

These are just examples, I'm not even going into elite level contenders in history that aren't even ATG's...

 

Most people? Of your list perhaps 4 IMO but I would also argue that many on your list would not take the overhand right and right uppercut of Lewis and those that can Lewis has the tools to keep them on the outside and at long range. IMO the biggest threats to Lewis would would Holmes, 60's Ali and Foreman. I would put money on Lewis to beat the rest on your list.

You speak of moments of truth against McCall and Rahman but were they really? The only shortcomings Lewis demonstrated in those 2 fights was his lack of focus. Sure he got knocked down twice but the rematches demonstrated the true levels of each fighter. Lewis utterly disproved the maxim that KO a fighter once and you'll do it quicker in the rematch. Lewis being tagged numerous times by known punchers also IMO dispells the notion that his chin is unreliable. It isn't.

Anyway, my H2H list FWIW:

1. Ali (60's version)
2. Lewis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Louis
6. Liston
7. Tyson
8. Holyfield
9. Jeffries
10. Frazier

 

Yes, Tyson at no. 1 for me. Marciano doesn't beat any of those guys in my top 10 peak/peak, thus I can't put him in my top 10.:|

I have nothing against Marciano, he's in my official ATG list at #8, 1 spot above Liston and two spots above Tyson at #10, just to show that I do rate Marciano for what he accomplished.

 

A lack of focus has to do with conditioning, motivation, will... but not to do with punch resistance and Rahman and McCall are mediocre punchers compared to these top 10 guys, even a fully motivated Lewis is getting his chin cracked against these top 10 monsters.

I even pick a peak Bowe over him, much less a Liston or Tyson.

 

I'll slightly disagree here on one of the fights. The Lewis problems with McCall were technical at a slightly green stage of his career, a flaw if you like. The ever astute Emmanuel Steward had picked up on this flaw and exploited it for all to see. Not that long after Steward ended up training Lewis, quickly shoring up this right hand defensive weakness and putting him on the path to his absolute best.

 

Well, this is head to head and I am phenominal at picking fights. I analyse not from reputation, but from actual deep stylistic and physical analysation you see.

A peak Tyson has no wins over a peak ATG of course, but he'd get plenty from my point of view in fantasy match ups, his later career really does his peak an injustice.

I don't overrate him, I do feel that putting him out of the top 5 in any H2H is utterly absurd however, especially when some have Lewis in there!:yep

Tyson is at least going to get more wins than Lewis, even if you underrate Tyson.