Top Twenty P4P Head-to-Head all time blah blah blah

Ah yes, Tyson's win over Spinks is better than Ali's wins over Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton and Patterson. Makes sense.

 

Spinks was prime.
Liston was around 40 years old, unprepared and injured. And he took a dive in the second fight. Ali's win over Liston was no more impressive than Tyson's win over Holmes.
Patterson had an injured back.
Frazier beat Ali the first time. Ali cheated to win the rematch. And in the 3rd fight, Ali was about to quit himself. All 3 fights were wars, it doesn't help Ali's case at all.
Norton beat Ali in 2 out of 3 fights.
Foreman punched himself out. And any slick ATG boxer could beat him.

 

Spinks wasn't prime, prime Spinks was lHW.
Liston wasn't 40, no source on this planet even remotely comes close to Liston being 40 when he fought Ali. The oldest birth date we have for Liston is 1930, which makes him 33-34 when he fought Ali.
Patterson was injured, that is fair. But in their rematch, Ali outclassed him.
The rest are mere excuses and are your opinions, not facts. Foreman was in his prime, and knocked out numerous 'slick boxers that could've easily just let him punch himself out', and was being outboxed by Ali even before he gassed out. Ali whooped Frazier's ass in both rematches, and it doesn't matter if he was going to quit or not. He was also gonna quit against Liston in their first fight, but Dundee didn't let him. The same thing would've happened this time.

But noooooo, Tyson's win over a bloated light heavyweight is definitely better than any of these.

 

Also you did NOT just equate beating Sonny Liston to beating a 38 year old Larry Holmes that just came off his couch a few weeks before the fight after a 2 year lay off

 

That isn’t true. He stayed active and was back in camp after maybe a little more than 1.5 years. He got knocked out right when he was settling into a rhythm. It had nothing to do with conditioning.

 

In his two fights prior to his fight with Clay/Ali Liston had knocked out Floyd Patterson twice in the first round in successive fights. Larry Holmes had been inactive nearly two years after retiring after successive loses to Michael Spinks.

 

I stand corrected. While this definitely makes Tyson's victory more impressive, it still doesn't equate to a prime Liston that just destroyed Patterson, Zora Folley and Eddie Machen.

 

Is your argument that Tyson beating Holmes is of the same magnitude of Ali beating Liston ?

 

It doesn’t, but Liston did have a shoulder injury and the rematch was a farce.

I’d put the Michael Spinks win up there with Norton though, and above Patterson.

 

Does Floyd get an asterisk because Manny had a shoulder injury?

And Patterson and Norton were in their primes. Was Holmes in his prime when he lost to Tyson?

 

Holmes was still better than Mercer, and by a lot.

I just gave Ali credit. But not all shoulder injuries are the same, and he did quit rather than enter the fight as a walking pharmacy and throw two handed combos all night before raising his arms over his head after the final bell without issue.

I don’t think any of us rate Leonard’s win in “No Mas” like his wins over Hearns or even Hagler.

 

Yeah, he got a shoulder injury trying to punch Ali. The first fight is still a legitimate win that Ali, then Clay, deserves all the credit for.

 

Liston didn't go in with a shoulder injury, unlike Duran who went into his fight with Leonard clearly out of shape. Sonny was game.

https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/27/...rd-hurt-shoulder-exchampion-rates-machen.html

 

The round Ali was blinded he was hit with some hellacious body shots.

 

He had linament in the corner for his shoulder. It’s a better win than Byrd over Vitali bc Ali looked headed for a win.