Trinidad vs. Duran of Montreal vintage

Also-- if you ever bother watching the fight again instead of just cutting and pasting, count how many times the commentators express shock that Leonard is standing right in front of Duran and not trying to move side to side.

 

BTW, how did you score the fight?

 

The clearly different versions of Duran for each fight didn't have anything to do with SRL being more successful? Please. You attribute SRL doing better boiling down to him changing his strategy. That doesn't fly with me, because the biggest difference in the fight to me, wasn't the change in strategy, but the change in Duran. The fire just wasn't there. Can you imagine Ray trying the same tactics in the first fight? I really can't imagine it having the same success. Duran was so determined that night, I just don't see it having the same success. Do you believe it was the same Duran for both fights that showed up?

You keep belaboring the point about how much success he had, but did he really? The score cards weren't exhibiting this massive gap that you seem to feel existed. Many, even now when watching it are disgusted with SRL tactics that night. It's like he didn't even come to actually fight. You like that type of running and think that is a good strategy to employ on a regular basis? I certainly don't.

Again, and you just can't get around this point. SRL didn't use bad strategy in the first fight, which is the basis for this discussion. He used his tried and tested strategy that won him a Gold medal and a championship belt. He chose to fight the best way he knew how. That could never, and should never be classified as bad strategy or fighting the wrong fight. It's really tha simple

 

The biggest difference between the two fights was that Leonard used way more lateral movement and running throughout the second fight.

So much mythology here-- you guys really need to rewatch the fight. The fight you all describe, where Leonard spends the whole fight being helplessly cornered and dominated, unable to run like a girl in a horror movie is very different than the fight that actually happened.

I agree that the outcome wasn't all that different (although who knows what would have happened if Duran hadn't broken down and quit like a child...) The first fight was extremely close and I had Leonard ahead.

Btw, I love Duran fans who criticize others for "making excuses" but then always find creative ways to dismiss his various underwhelming performances as if they were aberrations.

 

You didn't answer my questions

1. Do you believe the same Duran showed up for both fights?
A. If you don't, then why couldn't it be that it was the change in Duran, more so than a change in strategy that had more to do with it?

2. Do you see the same strategy SRL used in the second fight working as well in the first fight?

I've never claimed he was cornered and helpless. In fact, it was the opposite I've claimed. I thought he fought an excellent fight, and showed a lot of heart and courage and perseverance. Stuff he exhibited in many other fights and what made him special. Well that, and he was a special talent. So trust me, I've said no such thing. The only thing I disagree with was how close the fight was. I could never see giving SRL the nod in the fight. I can't even see it. Some fights are close where you could go, yeah maybe. This isn't one of them. Even when I'm being generous to SRL, I still can't give him enough rounds. That's with Duran even coasting the last 2 - 3 rounds. So your view that SRL won, is totally off base with me.

 

Sorry, to answer your questions in reverse order:

1) Yes, I don't see any reason whatsoever why the same running strategy wouldn't have been successful in the first fight. Again, as is I thought that Leonard edged out a narrow win (or suffered a narrow loss--several very close, difficult-to-score rounds) in the first fight and unlike some of you guys I saw no indication whatsoever that Duran prevented him from running. As you've said several times, it just wasn't in Leonard's game plan. That was a poor decision on Leonard's part.


2) What do you mean by "the same Duran"? The difference in his condition has been wildly exaggerated because of that ridiculous story Leonard's people like to tell about seeing Duran out of shape and tricking him into a rushed rematch. Hard to say whether it's the same Duran because Leonard fought a completely different fight! He came out circling and moving on the ***** of his feet, so Duran couldn't rush him and catch Leonard completely flat-footed like he did a few times in the first fight. Duran had to fight a completely different fight.

 

1. I first think you should watch the fight again. Watch it again, and tell me exactly which rounds SRL won and how you ended up with him edging the fight. I'm really curious how you could give him enough rounds for that. You do realize, most strongly disagree that the fight was that close, let alone SRL winning it?

2. Wildly exaggerated? What is the basis for such a statement? Everybody, from Duran's camp to SRL camp, all said he binged wildly after the first fight. It was noted he came into shape in poor condition and was having a tough time losing the weight. Which explain why he ended having to take supplements to lose the weight when it came close to weigh-in. How you could say it didn't exist and it was the same Duran is beyond me.

 

Not saying Trinidad is pound for pound better than Duran, BUT, I do think he matches up well with Duran because of the styles. The only fighters to beat Trinidad were defensive-minded cautious boxer types. Duran was an aggressive guy. No one ever attacked Trinidad and didn't get brutalized. Style-wise this is a very good matchup for Tito because he is taller, longer, a natural welter, and had a hell of a brutal punch. Not saying Duran doesn't win, but this would be a much tougher and taller order for Duran than you might think.

 

Unlike you I don't need to rewatch the fight because I KNOW it was exactly as the above report states. Duran wouldn't let Leonard employ any tactics, whether he wanted to or not. I don't care what any scabby commentators said, show me exactly where in the fight film ANYONE from Leonard's corner is imploring him to hit and run as you claim he ALWAYS did, when again you are wrong. He didn't.

But now baiting you about it has become fun, due to your girlie type denial of the facts.

Oh, and for your information numpty, that cut and paste came from a Wiki page dedicated to Leonard.:roll::roll:

 

1) Most objective people who actually score the fight come out with very close cards... Not sure what you mean. I find that the people who haven't seen it in a very long time tend to have these false memories of it being more one-sided than it was. Them and the people who can't tell clean punches from less sharp ones. Fight was pretty much even around halfway through and I thought that Leonard shaded several of the later rounds. I'm telling you-- the fight didn't happen the way you think you remember it.

2) People always have great stories about Duran and his partying. Bottom line is that he looked in great fighting shape to me. You could tell from the first minute that he was bothered by Leonard's movement though.

 

Thanks...I tried. The Duran cheerleaders don't take too kindly to that kind of affront though. :-(

 

Cool, that's all I need to know. I thought of you as more of a serious ****yst of the sport but you're just like those other guys who argue off what they read and what they think they remember from lord knows how many years ago. Carry on then. :good :hi:

 

To clarify, I thought that Duran's mauling tactics were only effective in certain spots. He won his rounds in a lot more dominant fashion than Leonard won his, but I thought there were plenty of exchanges throughout the fight where he had Ray backed up against the ropes and didn't really land anything clean worth noting. Enough to make casual viewers and Duran fans ooh and ahh and assume that he was really hurting Leonard though.

 

Sorry bud, Red Herrings and moving the goalposts don't work here for me. I didn't ask you how recently I watched the fight, or how I remember it, or even how I scored it. I asked you, to watch the fight and tell me which rounds you gave to SRL that had him edging the fight. Simple. You don't need to go on about how people aren't remembering it right... looking at it through Duran Sunglasses etc etc... What I'm asking is, name me the rounds you have to SRL. Simple