Trinidad vs. Duran of Montreal vintage

I think it was a bit of both. Duran was not as determined or in as good of shape for the second fight, and Leonard had a better game plan.

I think if Duran was prime for the second fight, and Leonard fought the way he did, it would have been a close 15 round decision for Leonard.

Bottom line, Sugar Ray proved he could fight Duran's fight in the first fight and make it competitive.

 

Why don't you tell me which rounds you scored for Duran then?

 

See it's this line of thinking which caused the entire sub argument here. He didn't fight Duran's fight and lose... HE FOUGHT HIS FIGHT and LOST. He fought the same way he fought before and after Duran. He fought the same way that won him a gold medal and a championship belt. He fought the best way he knew how and lost. This whole notion that he fought Duran's fight is simply ludicrous. For Christ sake, before the fight his trainer flat out said he's bigger... stronger.. longer... quicker and he's going to knock out the smaller duran. They did EXACTLY what they planned and trained for. Some perpetuating this notion that he fought Duran's fight, it's simply not true.

 

Just want to make sure that I understand you completely. Are you saying that Sugar Ray Leonard was always a flat-footed fighter who didn't use much lateral movement?

 

Let me tell you something. A prime Tito would be extremely dangerous for Duran at 147. Tito had size, his own terrific speed and absolutely huge power at that weight. I don't know if I'd pick Duran at all.

 

Good thing you asked because that isn't at all what I'm saying or have said. I didn't say anything like that. I didn't say he always fight flat footed. Nor that he just stood there and didn't use lateral movement. What you're aren't getting are these three things:

1. Even in the fight in question he didn't just stand there flat footed. What the fight again, and you'll notice he tried to implement lateral movement and a jab numerous times throughout the fight. Duran's persistence and bulldog attitude didn't allow SRL his optimal lateral movement. However, that isn't SRL not fighting his fight, that's duran making SRL fight in a way he desired.

2. As discussed, the hard left in the second round changed the whole complexion of the fight. SRL admitted this himself, and stated he was in a haze after that for a few rounds. As you know, that can make any fighter not fight exactly as he'd like. Again though, Duran caused that, it wasn't SRL choosing to fight a bad strategy.

3. Lastly, you should see some of SRL fights before and after. He fought very similar to his stance here against Duran. The difference was Duran. See how he was fighting W.B. you'll notice him standing in front of him trying to be the boxer puncher. The quicker and stronger guy and impose his physical attributes on his opponent. That IS how he fought consistently. He tried that against Duran, but guess what, Duran was able to gain SRL respect where W.B. and others couldn't. Not only that, but Duran's persistent aggression was something that other fighters didn't bring to the table. Not only reckless but also hard to hit and with excellent settle head movement. That was the difference, not SRL fighting the wrong fight.

So in the end what I'm saying is, and what I believe is, SRL tried to fight his usual imposing his will fight. While at the same time use lateral movement to further increase his physical advantages over the opponent. Difference is, Duran didn't allow part of that to happen through his sheer will, ability and technique.

 

I used to pick Duran every time but if he doesn't get Tito out of there early I do wonder if Trinidad's workrate and power could wear Duran down as he tires as he inevitably would do.

1. It's overplayed, he wasn't in as good condition but you don't lose your footspeed and handspeed because of that, he visibly still had it and he couldn't get near Ray early

2. Yes Ray's feet are way too quick for Duran to get set when he continually uses lateral movements, feints and doesn't engage. In return if they ever fight a pure fight Duran wins every time. Duran can train his ass off for a rubber match and still not catch Ray's fast feet.

 

Ok if you think you have the fight so firmly planted in your mind tell me how many times Carlos Padilla either slapped Leonards gloves down, or pulled his arm away from Duran when he was desperately looking to force a break by clinching. I'll give you credit if you can get within 5 of the actual number of times Padilla did this.

Let me give you a further tip. The next time you watch the fight try doing it with the sound off, rather than listen to biased Murican commentators waffling on in a fight that involved what was Murica's darling boy at that time.

Then come back and talk to me about serious $%£"ysis.

 

It's funny how everyone from both camps have admitted that Duran was totally out of condition, and grossly overweight, causing him to spend most of his camp just trying to make weight, never mind get into anything like the shape he was in for the first fight.

But the Leonard fans stock answer is always the same. " He looked ok to me."

Good. Tyson looked ok for the Douglas fight too, but you wanna read some of the excuses his fan boys come out with.:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

 

this is ridiculous they fought in different eras.

 

Good post, with excellent ****ysis, but will be ignored by Leonard fans because it doesn't sit well with their preconceived ideas of what he was.

They have this image of him being a balletic slickster who was able to fight only when absolutely necessary.

As opposed to Duran who they have as an over rated almost crude slugger.

 

He didn't say ANYTHING REMOTELY like that at all. He shat all over your hair brained theory that Leonard fought the wrong fight, implying he had a choice in the matter, so in your desperation to chase a lost cause you are accusing him of saying things he didn't.

 

Completely agree. I honestly don't get how this stuff isn't obvious to anyone who understands boxing.

 

I agree that Leonard tried to impose his physical will and failed (though not nearly as spectacularly as the boxing folklore suggests). My biggest disagreement with Foxy and you is the idea that Duran stopped him from using lateral movement during the fight. It contradicts your other arguments, doesn't pass the eyeball test, and isn't plausible because Duran lacks the size and footspeed to accomplish that. Stopping a mover with Leonard's footspeed from using any lateral movement whatsoever would be an extraordinary, almost supernatural feat far more difficult than you two seem to understand. There is simply no evidence of it in this fight.