Trinidad vs Mosley(147 )

The clash of heads hurt him more than anything else.

Mosley is far more durable than Tito and just as hard punching.

If Tito tries to walk through Mosley he will get knocked out quick time.

 

Trinidad is the better welterweight by far, he takes this

 

You're ignoring the most important aspect of boxing, which is skill, defence and technical ability. Cotto dissected Mosley using the same Rican technical boxing as Trinidad. Technically and defensively Mosley is poor. He doesn't have a guard and has poor defensive head movement. He's easy to hit and he punches wide. Look how many outboxed Mosley - Forrest, Winky Wright, Cotto, Mayweather, DLH clearly outboxed him second time. Not only that but Mayorga was outboxing Mosley for quite a bit of their fight and landing at will against at the time Mosley ko'd him in. Trinidad dominated Mayorga, Mayorga couldn't land on Trinidad as easily as he landed on Mosley, why? Because Trinidad has a much better defence

Also Mosley's power and offensive ability is levels below Trinidad. I mean maybe if Mosley hits you with his overhand right you're in trouble but that overhand right is very easy to see coming because it's such a wide shot. More importantly his technical ability is levels below Trinidad. He's easy to hit and punches wide rather than straight. So while he appears fast and athletic he often gets outboxed by slower boxers.

Comparitively Trinidad executes his punches perfectly. They're technically perfect. Straight, short, compact, sharp, direct punches. Mosley can't hope to execute his punches in the same way. Trinidad has better footwork, better jab

Mosley went into his shell in 2 fights against Forrest becuse he was very easy to time with big right hands and consequently got hurt. IIRC Forrest beat him in the amatuers too. He wasn't knocked down and out on his feet from the headbutt. He was visibly concussed after taking Forrest's right hand down the pipe. There was a rematch too where he clearly lost again.

Also you're completely ignoring stamina. Trinidad was the stamina king. He ran marathons for fun by himself and it tells. He maintained perfect technical form for 12 rounds at a high workrate.

It seems Trinidad has become the most underrated welterweight.

 

Mosley was not at his best for the Cotto fight, that's evident. Its like using Titos loss to Jones Jr against him.

Forrest is a very different stylistic challenge then Mosley and De La Hoya also clearly out boxed Tito is you remember.

Tito fought a large portion of his career at a low level, I mean what's his actual best welterweight performance? Losing to Hoya? Walking down a coked up Pea? Destroying a never was in Carr? He looked the part, but he wasn't proven at the top level imo.

I think the idea that he's going to be able to keep Mosley at the end of his punches the way Forrest did is removed from reality. Tito loved to hook and he also never shied away from exchanges. Once the distance closes he isn't going to reset behind his jab again, he's going to trade shots with Mosley and Shane has the chin to survive that exchange, Tito doesn't.

Work rate is something Shane had in spades, he always came on strong so over 12 rounds Tito has no edge on stamina.

It seems you highly under rate Mosley at WW who has better performances against better opposition as well as having a style advantage.

 

They wouldn't be exchanging, Trinidad would be applying educated pressure and breaking Mosley down. Trinidad's punches would get their first because they're straighter, technically far better and he has longer arms. This would make Mosley back up and Mosley's stops punching when he gets tagged. When Mosley backs up he would lose all of his leverage in his own punches. Why do you think Delahoya was happy to brawl with Mosley but scared to death about brawling with Trinidad? It's obviously because he considered Trinidad to be the far more dangerous fighter.

You're also vastly underestimating what Trinidad achieved. Whitaker, Delahoya, Quartey, Blocker, Campass and Carr were the top WWs when Trinidad was in the division. He fought 5 out of 6 destroying most of the welterweights he faced. He also beat ex champ Camacho, one of the fastest ever who was moving up in weight. After leaving the division he then immediately steps up and fights 2 champions at 154 in devastating fashion. He then steps up and fights a middleweight champion, destroying him, then it all goes wrong against an ATG Hopkins.

As for Pea being coked up. Whitaker has a good case for being unbeaten at the time and was P4P for a decade. It's a very good win.

As for losing to Delahoya. I used to consider it a robbery myself but I re-watched it and there's a valid argument for Trinidad winning 7 rounds. We know he won the last 3, I thought he won 8 and he has an argument for getting 3 of the first 4 rounds which were all close on the basis he was coming forward, landing the meatier punches more consistently and he was making Oscar run. Oscar was landing flashy flurries very infrequently but that doesn't always resonate as much as constant heavy blows throughout the round. It could well be King paid the judges though. The thing is HBO announced the judges scorecards after 8 rounds and you could see they had it close. Did Oscar's not see the same announcement? Terrible idea to run and give the championship rounds away. Oscar choose not to fight that night.

 

Good post. I favor Tito over Mosley as well for many of the reasons you mention. Curious of what your thoughts are on a Quartey vs Tito fight at 147. Ike is the one guy from that era that I think had a good style to beat Tito. I'm not 100% convinced that he would but that jab, high guard and his physical strength make him a very interesting opponent IMO. I think Quartey would have beaten Mosley outright.

 

You can't just say he beat 5 out of 6. Also your description of the top 6 is way off.

The Pea victory is not very good. No one rates it as such. The Hoya victory was not very good. No one rates it as such.

Carr and Blocker were good wins, but that's it for WW.

Mosley knocks him out.

 

It's hard to say on Quartey-Trinidad. Quartey has a really tight defence that was hard to break down and the meaty fast hammering jab. I heard that Quartey claims to have taught Winky Wright the high guard that Tito couldn't quite figure out. So would this be the case with a prime Tito? Tito's workrate was better than Quartey's and ofcourse Vargas beat Quartey, mainly on workrate. And if DLH knocks Quartey down twice, Trinidad may well finish him.

I thought Quartey clearly beat De La Hoya at least on a round by round 10 point must basis. Interestingly a judge who had De La Hoya that win had Trinidad beating DLH

 

Quartey and Winky were/still are very good friends. Quartey trained in the Tampa area when he was stateside and use to spar with Winky all the time. Winky was more of a counter punching cutie in his early days but developed into a high guard, heavy jabbing pressure like his friend Quartey. I agree, I though Ike beat Oscar but clearly lost to Vargas. He certainly would get knocked down a lot in fights but never really seemed hurt to often and was never stopped. Weird since he had excellent balance and footwork and fought strong in his stance.

 

Campas was at 147. You don’t think highly of that win?

I thought the De La Hoya fight was indicative of why Trinidad was so dangerous. Is as pretty much had to move the entire fight. Trinidad never stopped hinting and as soon as Oscar started to slow down...Trinidad took over the fight and we in high gear as if it was the first round. I have never watched the Carr or Blocker fight but since you consider those two good wins, I will consider them good as well. For me that is four good wins. 15 title defenses (second to only Armstrong at that weight 13KOs during that reign..almost like Louis at Heavyweight and Hagler at Middleweight).

I see an elite fighter at the weight. With Mosley you have razor close decision against Oscar and two loses to Forrest (RIP) who was himself promptly KOed by Mayorga.

I understand if one thinks that Trinidad is overrated at welter but Mosley’s record at the same weight doesn’t deserve to mentioned along side it. His returns to that weight class next losses against Mayweather, Cotto (I scored it for Mosley), Pacquiao (he actually ran away from Pacquiao)...etc. He did have that win over Margarito. I pick Prime Trinidad over everyone that Mosley fought at welter...except perhaps Mayweather...but I am not sure about that.

 

Campas has one of the most padded records in history, he was never anything to write home about.

Tito has two good wins for me, Blocker and Carr.

Mosley has two good wins also Hoya and Margarito.

I rate the wins Mosley has higher than the wins Tito has.

The title defences mean absolutely zero to me since he was never the best WW in the world so any title he was defending is meaningless.

 

This pretty much sums it up.

 

You may have answered this already and please forgive me if you did...However what about Mosleys two losses to Vernon Forrest?

What does Forrest do that Trinidad couldn’t do better? I think it goes without question the Tito hit hard. I think he was equal in speed, much more busy. Mosley couldn’t do anything with Forest.

Other question. Where do you rank Mosley in terms of all time rankings at Welterweight because if you think Trinidad’s accomplishments there have any merit I am curious who you have over Mosley.

Thanks.

 

It's about the style of punches. Forrest fired very straight text book shots behind a ram rod jab.

Every time Mosley punched he jabbed. Every time the jab back Mosley up he threw the straight right.

It was a great game plan and Mosley has one of the worst boxing IQs at an elite level. He can't change it up, he can only up his work rate, but whenever he did that Forrest just jabbed more.

Mosley ended up making a silent agreement.

Here's my top 15

Sugar Ray Robisnon
Ray Leonard
Henry Armstrong
Jose Napoles
Jack Britton
Ted Kid Lewis
Barbados Joe Walcott
Floyd Mayweather
Tommy Ryan
Mickey Walker
Kid Gavilan
Emile Griffith
Pernel Whitaker
Barney Ross
Manny Pacquaio

Mosley is miles off tbh. I could have Benitez, Duran, Curry all above him. Probably Hearns as well.

Mosley is in the pack with ODLH, Tito and Forrest.

All great WW fighters no doubt, but not enough to crack the list I gave.

 

Thanks for answering that.

Although I disagree with your assessment about Trinidad I do respect your boxing knowledge and obvious passion for the sport.

Frankly, I cannot share my Welterweight list because I don’t know enough if anything about some of those pre-WWI fighters and even some of the Post WWII era fighters.

Thanks for sharing and you gave me some food for thought.