Trout: Canelo Showed A Lot, But Draw With Golovkin 'Ridiculous'

I don't take the punch stats as gospel at all. It's manual and human error is always a factor. But it's interesting to take into consideration. I've seen independent stats from fans who have slowed down the fight to get an accurate depiction of the true landed and missed punches. What was revealed was GGG landed more than compu box gave him credit for and Alvarez landed more as well but his connect percentage was inflated. So like the judges in this fight were partial and favored Alvarez... So were the compu box operators. I'm sure the desperation you feel isn't coming from me....that's inate. Something that you are producing with each post you struggle.

Your right....the polls used aren't collecting the millions of viewers who actually saw the fight. However, that doesn't matter. Polling uses statistical analysis, hard numbers to tell compelling stories about elections, politics, sports, science, economics etc. It's an actual science so it's safe to say the if there were a possible way to get the feedback from every last person who saw the fight, thepercentages would hold up. Polling is a science based measument that's been proven so when polls "trend" a certain way, there's evidence to support the overall "consensus". The only logical case as to who won in this particular fight is GGG. That's just based on facts, how the fight played out and the criteria that boxing is actually scored on. Not that Alvarez can't beat GGG. He absolutely could....he just didn't on September 16th.

It's pretty evident that the crowd was not responding to the interviewer.....but the interviewees. The crowd doesn't care about Max Kellerman. If you think that a pro Alvarez crowd, wearing pro Alvarez merchandise in a pro Alvarez venue were not won over by GGG by the end of that fight, that's on you. The crowds reaction to each boxer in the post fight interviews were indicative of one fighter being the fan favorite....and it wasn't a pro Alvarez crowd by the end of the fight. If the slew of fans outside of the arena with Canelo hats and shirts all claiming GGG beat Alvarez doesn't prove to you that the booing came from his own fan base then that's on you. I can only lead a horse to water...I can't make him drink.

GGG stood his ground....only in spots. It's true when I say that the majority of the fight saw Alvarez back peddling. You claim GGG got lazy in the last 3 rounds....Maybe...but even in his lazy rounds GGG outworked Alvarez. So Canelo simply did not do enough over the course of 36 minutes that would justify a win or even a draw. He was surviving....showing flashes of superb boxing ability but not enough to wrestle control from Golovkin.

I'm not under selling the quality vs quantity arguement at all. Alvarez simply didn't do enough, often enough to impact the overall outcome of the fight. He did enough to keep it competitive, make it to the end of the fight and leave it in the hands of the judges which favored him. Alvarez didn't land more....he barely moved towards GGG and he was mostly in a defensive posture which are all facts.

In the rematch Nelo can't fight the same fight. It needs to be more diverse and balanced, offense and defense. He has to work on his conditioning because I think he ran a lot in that fight due to being gassed, amongst other factors. He doesn't need to just bang it out with GGG, but he can't use back peddling as his main form of defense. He has to rely and trust in his actual skills to allow him to slip, parry and defend against the Golovkin offense. That means staying in the center of the ring and using lateral movement and angles vs going into retreat. It's a little more risky but it also provides greater opportunities for his own offense.

GGG needs to go to the body. He did nothing to give Alvarez anything to think about other than watching out for head shots. Golovkin used the jab well and needs to make sure in the rematch it's as consistent of a weapon as it was in the first fight. However, he will need to be prepared for a much better Alvarez who is most likely going to be more active and in better condition. I see the rematch playing out a bit differently next time....it will be closer and a lot more action from Alvarez. He may actually beat Golovkin, without any controversy. It really depends on how Nelo is mentally after all of this pressure he's received due to the draw

 

How the masses viewed the fight did have a lot to do with the scorecards because all anyone was talking about after the fight was Byrd’s card and how wrong it was. If you don’t think that subconsciously enters into people’s minds and sways them away from the fighter who that card had it for then I don’t know what to tell you. Acting like that didn’t play a role in who media or fighters thought won then asked is ridiculous. Another factor that shaped people's view of the scoring of the bout was in the buildup at least on this message board we seen a lot of people, presumably all G fans, make the argument repeatedly that "G couldn't win a decision" because Oscar has the judges on the palm of his hand or whatever the case may be. You combine that with the amount of constant crying and complaining about the scores of Canelo's bouts with Floyd, Lara and Trout, well all that affects how we score the bout when you have that in the back of your mind, however untrue or ridiculous it may be, that was a main talking point around these parts in the lead up to the fight. Is it really a coincidence that the same people who thought Lara won, the same people who thought Mayweather won nearly every round vs Canelo, the same people who thought Trout may have won, are criticizing yet another Canelo scorecard. It's just another top opponent that Canelo has fought tooth and nail and a good amount of people just simply are in denial of it. You simply just dont' want to believe that Canelo did that well vs G, and "equalled" G in the eyes of the judges. The difference between you and me is I'm not in denial about what happened. I fully accept the judges scorecards. You don't. That's you being an outlier. Just because you can find a handful of people on this message board that agree that G clearly won, that's like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the all the people who watched the fight. It doesn't prove anything, and you're comments reflect a need to have people on your side, rather than the natural confidence of knowing that you're seeing it accurately.

I don’t know what “polling” you are referring to as far as who won a boxing match. You seem very confident that whatever percentages you are using translate precisely from a small sample size of people to millions of people, which is impossible to know. I’d be interested though if you are basing your percentages solely on the list of media scores in that thread or if you are going by an online poll you found somewhere else.

You’re obviously in denial over who landed more clean effective punches. This is something that needs to be examined round by round, so what I’ll ask you is if you’re willing to talk the talk, are you willing to walk the walk? Walking the walk in this case is spending the time and effort to go through rounds and examine the punches, go through timestamps etc. If you’re willing to do that, then lets get started. If it's as obvious as you claim it is, then you should have no problem going through this exercise.

FYI the punch stats don’t prove anything and they are very misleading. And by the way, that’s something that I’m not in the minority on. Plenty of people over the last several years have posted on here about how inaccurate punch stats are, so you saying that the punch stats prove something shows that you’re very easily fooled by data presented to you. I’m not that gullible, so with me you’re gonna have to do more than just cite punch stats, which by the way still narrowly favored Canelo. (the punch stats you apparently believe have Canelo with a higher accuracy and with more landed Power Punches)

You’re clearly contradicting yourself by first saying the punch stats prove that Canelo did not land more “clean effective punches”, which is an absurd thing to say in the first place because punch stats don’t prove which punches were more effective. That’s something humans have to make a determination of. (the effectiveness and impactfulness of each punch) Punch stats just count (or guess) as to which punches landed, not their effectiveness. Then after you stated that the punch stats proved something that they couldn’t possibly prove, then you say that the numbers were off, and that you saw “independent recalculation” (on youtube done by a G fan I’m guessing, if not please show what you’re referring to) that showed the “numbers were off” that proved that not only were the judges partial to Alvarez but that the operators of Compubox were as well? That's really quite a statement. Is this your answer to the discrepancy in the 5th round with the live numbers having Canelo up 14-9 with 15 seconds left but then G magically outlanding him 18-14 in that round after the fight? Please explain this, you sound like you know what really happened there. I’m guessing you think that there were pro Canelo Compubox operators counting punches that favored Canelo live, but then more neutral Compubox people came in after the fight and changed the numbers after the fight? (how’s that? Do i got it about right lol)

But please, I’d love to hear more about this Compubox scandal, because I’m still trying to figure out how Canelo was outlanding G 14-9 in Round 5 only to have G magically outland Canelo 18-14 in that round lmao.

It sounds like you’re really sure that G won, and good for you. To me it sounds like you’re trying to convince yourself of that, but hey whatever you need to do. There’s plenty of tangible factors that I can point to put a dent in your view of the fight just like Canelo put a dent on G’s record.

 

The score card didn't influence the perception of the masses. If anything the commentary would and they were pro Alvarez. If your theory was valid then all fights that went to the card would be Pre determined based on media predictions and promotional pushing their agendas. I'm not in denial. It was recorded a draw but that decision didn't represent what took place inside the ring....just like the draw in the Lennox Lewis vs Evander Holyfield wasn't a valid decison based on how the fight actually unfolded. Accepting the judges score card for every fight no matter how controversial the outcome might be is fine for those who aren't capable of thinking for themselves. Critical thinking isn't something everyone applies which is evident. It's not just polls of viewers overwhelmingly scoring the fight as a clear victory for GGG proving the draw was unjust....it's also the fact that professional boxers and trainers who have years of actual experience that adds validity to the fact that GGG won. A fan is one thing....a blogger, sports journalist or reporter doesn't hold the same weight that guys like Klitchko, Pacquaio, Garcia, Trout, Hill, Jack, Jacobs, Toney etc. have. Not to mention polls are scientifically backed to prove consensus amongst the population without having to touch each individual. Polling uses statistical analysis — hard numbers — to tell compelling stories about elections, politics, sports, science, economics etc. My confidence doesn't have anything to do with how others agree with me, it's just a fact that helps reinforce my stance and gives perspective to those who have a hard time justifying a conflicting opinion.

Relax bro. Lol. You are getting a bit riled up talking about "walking the walk". It's not that serious...However, I have no problems going through the rounds counting the punches landed. The videos are already out there that have done all the work for me so I can pass along the links which prove GGG landed more. I already mentioned I don't give much credence to Punch Stats....it's more of an extra measure to consider after the fight to give a little more color to what actually happened inside the fignt. In no way is it a tool to decide the winner. I didn't contradict myself by mentioning the punch stats....I saw the fight live and rewatched the fight twice and saw for myself GGG landed more....Punch stats just backed up what I already knew. I've seen a few recalculated punch stats both by Nelo supporters and GGG supporters and it only proved that compu box was off in accounting for punches landed on both sides. I'm unaware of the compu box "scandal" you are talking about. I just chalked it up to human limitations and manual error for missing or accounting for all the landed punches? The scandal was in the scoring.. Not punch stats.

However it sounds to you can't be taken too seriously. I don't need convincing as to who won....I know along with most everyone who watched the fight Golovkin won. It's you who is on the defensive based on having to defend your view that is not part of the overall consensus. It's like those who think Floyd lost to Shane Mosely....The people who thought Floyd won are the consensus and don't have to defend their stance....but the Shane supporters on the other hand have a bit of explaining to do if they want to be taken seriously. But on both accounts it's a losing battle. Both of those fights had a clear winner....one just had a controversial outcome. You're not producing anything of relevance to "dent" my view....of you had anything of note, Im sure you would have provided it by now? And the recorded draw didn't "dent" GGG's record at the end of the day.....just as the draw didn't dent Lewis's resume. The draw impacted both Alvarez and Holyfield more as it should. They both didn't deserve the gift

 

On September 16th, neither Canelo Alvarez or Gennady Golovkin were able to beat each other. Neither fighter won. Not that G can’t beat Alvarez, he just didn’t on September 16th.

As far as the polling and your repeated statements that it’s an actual science and all that, what polls are you looking at that you're basing all of this off of? It sounds to me like you’re looking at the “media scores” thread of the 100 some odd media / fighters listed there, and are projecting that out onto millions upon millions of people worldwide, stating emphatically and without a shadow of a doubt that it directly correlates to the whole of the world. I mean I don’t have to point out how completely absurd that is, but surely if you have any chance of making that argument, you would need to at the very least specify which polls you are using. I’m guessing you must be looking at some kind of a official poll of some sort where there are guidelines to the data collection procedures and what not. So please share with us the poll(s) that you are using to reach these conclusions.

Not necessarily. It’s quite possible that the crowd was split, and that the G fans were more vocal and more rude in booing the opponent. There’s a whole variety of possibilities as to where those boos were coming from, and what specifically they were booing. You and several others are painting a picture that those boos somehow proved that G won, or somehow prove that Alvarez’s own fans were booing him. I’m guessing those boos were coming from a sizable portion of the crowd who were vocal for G. That (possibly) combined with Canelo’s fans who were booing Max’s question as to if Canelo should fight differently and “stand still” in the rematch. That’s my best guess, which is much more reasonable than you stating that it was Alvarez’s own fans who were “won over” by Triple G lol. Or it was somehow proof that the crowd as a whole thought G won. It’s just amazing at how you be so sure of what % of the crowd was booing, and that it was Canelo’s own fans booing him lol. Not only that, but don’t you think that some of the fans probably were just booing because it was a draw? When G first started being interviewed, there were a lot of boos. (when Max first started interviewing G) I’m not jumping to all these kinds of conclusions as far as what those boos mean or represent like you are.

That’s your interpretation of what you saw. The judges (all 3 of them) obviously saw it very different than you did.

OK, once again, the judges saw it very different than you did. The judges favored who the better boxer was round after round. That happened to be Canelo for more rounds that G. CA had 345 points, G only had 339 points. That means the judges overall thought that Canelo was the better boxer and more deserving winner in more rounds than they thought G was. You’re in denial of that. CA did more than enough to be competitive, he did enough to earn a draw with a total points advantage which is something Triple G has never experienced as a professional. It’s a monumental accomplishment. There’s now a dent in Triple G’s record that ties him to Canelo in more ways than one. You are trying to act like that didn’t happen lol by claiming G clearly won, which he didn’t. It’s kind of funny to see you pretend like that didn’t happen, and acting like somehow I’m the one who’s denying the result.

That’s your opinion, and that’s the same question Max asked Canelo when at least some of the crowd booed. I boo that because Canelo isn’t gonna “stand still” like Triple G wanted him to. Triple G couldn’t give a Big Drama Show because he was completely and comprehensively outboxed by Saul Canelo Alvarez over the course of 12 rounds on September 16th 2017. Canelo didn’t run, you think he ran because you favor come forward fighters and get confused between fighting off the backfoot and running, something we’ve recently talked about when discussing how fights are judged and how often it is that fights are scored for the come forward fighter simply because he is coming forward. You’re proving that point better than I ever could.

To your point though, I’ve stated that I thought Canelo was gonna do more inside fighting as I think he’s a good inside fighter. And as the naturally smaller guy, it kind of makes sense for him to get inside and work that body. You make a reasonable point here but you say it with too much certainty, like he “can’t” fight the same fight in the rematch. There’s aspects of his game that Canelo can improve on, but you never know what adjustments the opponent could be making. So if you try to change too much, that can work against you as well. Canelo has a solid foundation to beat Triple G. Triple G got gifted a draw in a fight that he got outboxed. But he was busier in many of the rounds so he got some of the close rounds.

 

Canelo’s only gonna get better, while G is getting older and he may not ever be the same after getting brutalized and punished by Canelo. G was very wary of going to Canelo’s body because #1 it’s such a small target and #2 Canelo is such an effective counter puncher, G knew it was too much of a risk to go to the body because he if tried he was worried about getting hit with a big punch and getting hurt.

If G tries to go to the body in a rematch, he could get knocked out. So, I'm not sure that’s the kind of advice you want to give your fighter, but I can assure it was no coincidence that G had such a low number of body punches vs Canelo. This was one area that Canelo clearly and undeniably “beat” G in. On Sept 16th, Canelo proved that he’s a much more versatile fighter than G and a much more skilled body puncher. Going into the rematch, I’m glad I’m a Canelo fan because if I was a G fan I’d be a little worried about what’s gonna happen to G if he gets in there with Canelo again.

 

In Shadow111's world, nobody has eyes and everybody needs somebody else to tell them what's happening. Maybe that explains the "Shadow" part. Everything is a mystery.

Yet another straw man. You're really good at creating false arguments to "explain" why your view is correct and others not. Let's review:

1) Most fans scored it for GGG: "they were influenced by the bad scorecards"
2) The numbers that said GGG won were overwhelming: "you haven't polled EVERYBODY"
3) Compubox scored it for GGG: "Compubox is wrong"
4) Fans saw GGG outscore Canelo: "They were influenced by Compubox"

Translation: People say Canelo keeps winning close decisions that he didn't earn so that made them think that he didn't earn this one"

MAYBE there's a REASON why everybody predicted this **** was going to happen. That reason being, Canelo gets favourable scorecards.

Because we saw Golovkin win. It's nothing about belief.

Pal, you live on a housebout in de Nile.

QED. YOU are the outlier. Nobody except for Oscar and Canelo's mum thinks the judges scores were right.

UHOH! Shadow has discovered NUMBERS, and he's not afraid to use them!! He's magically increased the population of the Earth by 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000, give or take a few billions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics

"Representative sampling assures that inferences and conclusions can reasonably extend from the sample to the population as a whole."

Golovkin. His punches moved Canelo, he bust him up; he drove him back. Saul was unable to stand his ground against GGG and ran like a ***** for 80% of the fight.

Which is why I went through the fight on my own and my own punches landed count is not far off Compubox. But I guess you have to watch the fight in slomo on a black and white TV hanging upside down and listening to "La Cucaracha" to get the TRUE, Shadow111 punchstats.

Answer: somebody forgot to update the punchstats as they were happening.

Shadow111 = OMG CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Call Los Zetas! ALVAREZ WAS JOBBED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're the guy posting, like 1000000000000000000000000000000000000 line arguments as to why black is white Now behave or I will unleash more zeros on you

 

""I had Golovkin winning the first fight which a lot of people saw that way, but this (type of result) seems to be the case when Canelo fights. We will see what the judges decide in a rematch," Lara stated.""

OMG! Conspiracy! The more fighters that say this, the more proof that there is an anti-Canelo conspiracy!!!!

 

On September 16th GGG beat Alvarez, it was only recorded as a draw. No man is unbeatable therefore Alvarez could beat GGG. He just wasn't successful in doing so the first time they met.

The polls are out there online in different formats....social media, boxing forums, general feedback from different sources....collectively they all read the same which is no surprise...The overwhelming majority had GGG as the clear winner. That doesn't represent the "whole world".....just the overall consensus of the people who actually saw the fight. The PPV numbers would have been insane if the entire world somehow watched the GGG vs Alvarez fight. There's a running list that is constantly being updated as new boxers, trainers, writers and analysts weigh in on the fight and who won. You can find it pretty easily if you did a little digging. They just added Virgil Hill, Wald Klitchko and Trout to the ever growing list of people who all agree GGG won clearly.

Your reaching.....Golovkin's fans didn't have the numbers to over shadow the Alvarez supporters. That's just silly. They fans just were voicing what they felt, which translated to what the strong and overwhelming majority of fans felt watching at home....they boo'd Alvarez and cheered GGG. It's not rocket science so don't over analyze it. It only makes you look desperate in an attempt to save your argument that has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. I don't know the exact percentage of fans that were pro Alvarez but it's safe to say that as the more popular fighter who had more cheers at the weigh in, more cheers at the beginning of the fight and with his country sharing a boarder with the US where the fight was held, it would be more than safe to say it was absolutely a pro Canelo crowd. Lol. I'm sure your reality offers your own unique twist on why there was a stark contrast in the response from the crowd when GGG got the mic vs when Alvarez got the mic but it's laughable.

The draw to you is a dent.....but not to how history will remember the actual fight. No one ever says Holyfield earned a draw against LL....they always say Evander was lucky to be given a draw and that LL beat him. This won't be any different for GGG and Alvarez. The dent impacts Canelo because most look at the decision as a loss he avoided through judges his promoters had in their pocket. And listening to the overwhelming number of fans who scored the fight for GGG it does negatively impact his stock a bit.

Nelo didn't have to put on track shoes and turn his back to run from GGG. In boxing back peddling as a form of defense is considered running. That isn't a skill....anyone can back peddle. Don't take things so literal. Fighting off the back foot is not the same thing as back peddling and in full retreat. Shifting side to side, lateral movement, angles, half steps back to make a punch fall short..That's defensive skill and done off the back foot....Nelo did that a little, but most of the time he was trying to get breathing room and as much space in between him and Golovkin as possible by back peddling.

Alvarez needs to fight on the inside more to get GGG's respect the next time they fight. He is a good pocket fighter which is why I was a bit surprised by all the back peddling. It didn't do him any good other than it allowed him to avoid exchanges. He just needs a more balanced offensive approach and he will do a lot better

 

Golovkin won the fight. Hell, you don't have to be an expert to see that, anyone could see that. We all heard the booing of Alvarez and the cheering for Golovkin. The polls showed that almost everyone saw Golovkin the winner. Oscar does not want Golovkin to fight again until time for the fight, which will be May or Sept., but could be years! That is what Golovkin is concerned about. Golovkin should fight Saunders before the next fight, but Oscar wants Golovkin inactive. Golovkin is a fighter who likes to keep sharp, he likes to fight 3 or 4 time per years, El Pollo, does not want to fight often. That's the trouble with boxing, nobody wants to fight very often, every year or two. We need boxers like Golovkin who fight often. This is a trick that Oscar is playing, wants to keep Golovkin inactive as much as possible...............Trout is correct. Nacho Beristain is correct, Lennox Lewis is correct, Vitali Klitschko is correct, Lomachenko is correct, Kovalev is correct, so is Bivol, Gvozdyk, Usyk, ad infinitum...........

 

I get about 2 sentences in, then just scroll down to the next post

 

GGG is definitely getting older and at 35 time is ticking. That's why it's probably a good strategy for Alvarez to weight until next year to do the rematch instead of December like GGG is pushing for.

No one was brutalized in their match. It just wasn't that kind of fight. They both got banged up a little bit, superficial damage, no cuts, just some bruises and lumps. It was more of a chess match and a tactical fight. Two contrasting styles with completely different strategies. The next fight might be more explosive because Alvarez will be looking to prove something to his fans and to the critics who had him losing.

Nelo definitely did better work to the body. That was clear because GGG didn't touch the body almost all night. He will need to add that to his strategy in the rematch to win.

 

Golovkin won and the draw was a disgrace......give it a rest.

8-4 to GGG, easy fight to score.

 

Before the fight, Canelo supporters: "GGG doesn't have enough fans to make big PPV numbers, Canelo does."
After the fight: "There were more GGG supporters in the arena."

Aaaaannnd ... that sums up Shadow111's argument. Desperate and full of holes.

Good job on this thread.

 

Is he getting older ? Have you any evidence or just observation ? How can you tell ? On a level playing field GGG just has to do the same again. Its Canelo that needs to adjust

 

Golovkin has definitely slowed down some since his heyday. Check out the Proksa fight for example and tell me he wasn't faster and more fluid back then. I think his strength and chin are undiminished though.