Truly Great Heavyweights

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Sonny's jab, Apr 16, 2008.


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  1. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    I rank em' above Liston, anyway.
     
    Russell, Apr 16, 2008
    Russell, Apr 16, 2008
    #46
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes.
     
    McGrain, Apr 16, 2008
    McGrain, Apr 16, 2008
    #47
  3. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    I think Lewis will be more appreciated as time goes on, maybe sooner if Vitali comes back and accomplishes good/great things.

    Time'll tell.
     
    Russell, Apr 16, 2008
    Russell, Apr 16, 2008
    #48
  4. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    hmm, so a win over a 156 lb Langford and a McVea with like 10 fights is highly impressive? Not really
     
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    #49
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes it's impressive, probably more impressive than any two wins on Jack's resume, but that is not my argument.

    My argument is that you are comparing the absolute best of Dempsey (Willard) without having the peak footage of Johnson (black-title run), so claiming (correctly) that Dempsey "is more impressive on film" is not the whole story, or even the most imoprtant part.

    That was my point.
     
    McGrain, Apr 16, 2008
    McGrain, Apr 16, 2008
    #50
  6. Holmes' Jab

    Holmes' Jab Master Jabber Full Member

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    He's a natural cruiserweight, though. Plus was fighting small guys or big crude and clumsey oafs. Fine offensive fighter, with a good defence and power, I'll give you that. However you couldn't exactly call him a fighting Champion. If he got knocked out of the ring by the likes of a Firpo- **** knows what Johnson and Jeff could do. Never mind beginning to list other greats. Good mention on McVey and Langford, McGrain. Wills too. I'd give all a decent chance against Dempsey. If Dempsey were to best thos guys I don't think he'd do so as convincingly as Johnson did that's for sure.
     
    Holmes' Jab, Apr 16, 2008
    Holmes' Jab, Apr 16, 2008
    #51
  7. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    well fair enough

    But Johnsons style did not change much as far as i know. He wrestled too much, did not have a chin as good as Dempsey, and didnt have alot of rematches with fighters who gave him trouble the first time around. (on the other hand, Dempsey hammered Flynn in a rematch, as well as Miske)
     
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    #52
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Look, we both know, I think that there is not a lot between these two. The fact that Johnson is a head to head nightmare for Dempsey and the fact that he has a deeper resume means that he should edge it, for me. If you want to give it to Dempsey on the punching, I think that is OK, but it will never be for me.
     
    McGrain, Apr 16, 2008
    McGrain, Apr 16, 2008
    #53
  9. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    Was Dempsey at his best for the Flynn fight, not to mention the controversies surrounding it? Johnson got knocked out too early in his carrier but he was young then, inexperienced, thats the point.

    Now if Johnson got knocked down by Stanley Ketchel, or Jeffries strugglng with Tom Sharkey, who knows how theyll fare against Dermpsey?
     
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    #54
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I don't.
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 16, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Apr 16, 2008
    #55
  11. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    you are entitled to ur own opinon :good
     
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    #56
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Jack Johnson was only 180lb when he fought sam langford, so he hadnt reached his physical peak yet either
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 16, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Apr 16, 2008
    #57
  13. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    he was 185 lb i think

    But why no rematch?

    I think Johnson was great, i agree he is close to Dempsey, but i do think it hurts both their standing that they failed to meet certain contenders.
     
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    dmt, Apr 16, 2008
    #58
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There was talk of a rematch post-Jeffries. I think that Johnson was basically done at that point, not literally, but for every fighter there comes a time when his foot comes off the gas. Johnson, the fighter, proved what he wanted to prove and from that point on he became more about the man.

    I think Langford would have got him at this stage, and I think that he knew that.

    If only it had come off! Langford would have become HW champ of the world, and I wouldn't have to hear this Sugar Ray **** (Langford would be concensus p4p #1 I bet)!
     
    McGrain, Apr 16, 2008
    McGrain, Apr 16, 2008
    #59
  15. Sonny's jab

    Sonny's jab Guest

    I think he's become ridiculously overrated.
    Sure, he had some impressive performances and a very good record but not to merit him being in the same breath as Joe Louis.

    The defeat to Rahman is apalling in every way. Yes, he made amends in part by avenging it, I credit him that, but how far is that credit supposed to go ?
    Floyd Patterson avenged a defeat to Johansson twice over but it doesnt wipe out the loss, and Johansson was number 1 contender with a 1st round win over Eddie Machen. Hasim Rahman is a mediocre plodder, with two KO defeats to Oleg Maskaev. And he didn't even have to fight a great fight to take Lewis's title. It's a terrible mark on Lewis's record.

    Also, Lewis's reign is exaggerated by his supporters. Lewis being ducked by Riddick Bowe does NOT make him "champion of the 90s", or "donminant for over a decade". Lewis was gifted alphabet titles and look largely ordinary against ordinary fighters in '93 - '94, and some later on. His loss to Oliver McCall seemed fair to me, he was falling on top of the referee. Sure, let's call it controversial but McCall was just countering an amateurish telegraphed right-hand that we all knew Lewis was fond of throwing at the time. And McCall was just a glorified sparring partner.

    In reality, Lewis's dominance was much BRIEFER and co-incided with the decline of Holyfield, absolute redundance of Tyson and absolute reluctance and absence of Bowe, as well as the overall decline of the heavyweight division.

    Lewis was a formidable heavyweight, a monstrous puncher and a good champion. But that's it. IMO.
     
    Sonny's jab, Apr 16, 2008
    Sonny's jab, Apr 16, 2008
    #60
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