truly how good was Povetkin at his absolute prime?

First, my dear: Wilder had MILKED World Boxing Council World HW title belt 5 years without 1 one unification fight.
Better belt milker in U.S boxing than Wilder was only one boxer: Garry Russel Jr, he is milking his WBC World Title now 6 ? years in row.
Thank you.

So where your idol had showed up?
We had saw him vs Fury, thank you.
It isn't something like Holy or Mike or xxx boxers, even not close to Crawford's legacy, my KID.

 

So in your absurdly long response you dishonestly omitted to mention that Ortiz was a drugs cheat (which non-A sides find it harder to get away with) who failed multiple tests and got KO'd in both of his attempts to win a title. You consider Ortiz to be Wilder's best win, when like Povetkin he never won an official title and by your own logic is thus worse than Joseph Parker, Andy Ruiz and Charles Martin (let alone Wlad). For world champs on the resume, Wilder has Liakhovich and Stiverne x2, while Povetkin has Byrd, Chagaev, Huck and Rahman, Ortiz has no wins over former world champions whatsoever.

Povetkin's fellow SHW finalist "Mohamed Aly" didn't show up because he was injured after a very close contest with perpetual Ortiz-basher Michel Lopez, while Povetkin had beaten star amateur Cammarelle 31-18 in the semis, himself the 2008 Olympic gold medalist among a plethora of other notable wins (including being robbed of gold in London against AJ). And on top of the Olympics, Povetkin won the world championships (unlike Ortiz, who was eliminated by Alexander Povernov in the quarter finals) and the European championships twice. Was Bryan an Olympian? Did he win the world championships or even the Pan-American games? Because it looks like he did next to nothing in the amateurs and his best achievement in the pros is beating a 42 year old, horribly out of shape, 2 years inactive, thrice-stopped Bermane Stiverne and making hard work of it.

Had Wilder KO'd Povetkin twice and AJ stopped Ortiz, you would be making the exact opposite arguments.

 

Here, I'll keep this short.

Povetkin never actually managed to win anything more than a "regular" or "silver" belt. Trevor Bryan and Joe Joyce have 'regular' and 'silver' belts ... so however good that range is ... that's about where and what Povetkin was ... because that's how far he got.

Since you desperately want to talk about Deontay Wilder or anyone other than Povetkin and his faults ...

Deontay Wilder won a major title - the WBC Heavyweight title. Wilder beat the then-reigning champ to win it. Wilder made 10 successful WBC Heavyweight title defenses, including one over the reigning World Champion he's fighting tomorrow night.

And Wilder could be the Ring/World Champion in about 48 hours.

Povetkin never won anything as a pro. And his career is over, so he never will. So slot him wherever you slot contenders who never won any major title, never made any major title defenses, never successfully defended against an undefeated world champ ...

Wherever that is.

Wilder surpassed Povetkin the moment he won the WBC Heavyweight title.

Povetkin never achieved even that much in his entire pro career.

 

Povetkin could be better than Joyce (who is very good) but still never win a title. Winning a belt depends on who your competition is, at what time in your career and political manoeuvring. Beating Stiverne is not remotely equal to beating Vitali, Wlad or even AJ. Defences against the likes of Molina, washed up Arreola, Washington etc. also don't prove a huge amount.

The question is not "Is Povetkin better than Wilder?" Povetkin's top 10 opponents are of higher quality than Wilder's, though Wilder should get a certain amount of credit in defending against his opponents as many would have been planning for him well in advance. Wilder also in my view has the best win between the two with Ortiz at an official 39, though the rankings would probably say that Povetkin's win over Whyte was better. Wilder's speed, length and explosive power make him more dangerous than Povetkin against top opposition, so there's a good argument for Wilder being the better fighter overall. But Povetkin was an excellent fighter regardless.

 

Definite HoF. Crouchy small heavy with real pop and volume. Super tough also which made it extra sad to see the state of him in his last fight, should not have been in there.

 

The question isn't whether Povetkin is better than Wilder. Nobody asked that question. You're the one who keeps bringing up Wilder and Canelo and everyone else.

The question is how good was Povetkin?

Over a 16-year career, Povetkin was good enough to win a "regular" belt and a "silver" belt and an "interim" belt ... but he wasn't good enough to win a major championship.

He was granted title shots at all four major belts (three of them twice). He was also active and highly rated as early as 2008.

Povetkin had powerful promoters. How many men held major heavyweight titles between 2008 and 2021? Too many to name off the top of my head.

Povetkin beat none of them for a major title.

This wasn't the Olympics. He actually had to fight them and WIN to pick up a title. And he didn't.

And, added to that, was the stigma of failing multiple PED tests and losing his ranking for a time because of it. If he wasn't as "connected" ... he'd have vanished after the multiple debacles in 2016.

He didn't win anything. His career is over.

How good was he? NOT good enough to win anything. That's how good he was.

He wasn't even good at cheating.

He got as far as he got ... so that's where you slot him.

I'm not moving on this. I was very clear with my first post and I've been very clear all along.

Good not great.

 

As far as I can tell, Povetkin was ranked in the top-10 for nearly 12 1/2 years, entering after the Chris Byrd win in 2007 and exiting after the Dillian Whyte loss. I believe 8+ of those were spent in the top-5. That is damn difficult to do, even in a class like heavyweight. In fact, I think Povetkin's numbers are similar to Tim Witherspoon's, in that regard.

Povetkin was a very good heavyweight who would have contended in any era. He was crafty, well-schooled, had big pop, good speed, quality combination punching, was one of the few consistent body punchers, and could take a good shot. I found him refreshing, given he competed in an era of big stiffs who relied heavily on straight shots.

 

Can tell you’re a real fan of the sport. That fight doesn’t get brought up much but I remember for sure scoring that fight for Huck as well as many ringside journalist..

 

Are you also clear that prolific drug cheat Luis Ortiz is "good not great" and inferior to Charles Martin based on Ortiz not winning a belt and getting KO'd twice in two attempts?

 

You are correct. He was top 5 Ring ranked 10 times over this period, top 3 ranked 6 times and top 2 once. These were his annual rankings:

2007: 10
2008: 4
2009: 3
2010: 4
2011: 3
2012: 3
2013: 3
2014: 2
2015: 3
2016: unranked
2017: 5
2018: 6
2019: 7
2020: 4

Very few HW's can match Povetkin for consistency.

 

It looks like the kind of record you'd associate with someone like Norton or Quarry in the 70s -- consistently one of the best guys, but far enough away that he couldn't push himself over the finish line.

 

Clarification question: It was my understanding that the Russian PED program was just for their amateur athletes.

Not that Povetkin wasn't juicing as well (obviously...), but I wasn't aware it was part of the same program that the Olympic amateurs were using.

 

Had Povetkin got a title fight against Arreola, Stiverne, Ruiz, Parker or Martin he would have almost certainly been a champion. Unfortunately he drew prime Wlad (given carte blanche to wrestle all night) and at 39 years old, AJ (who he was beating at the time of the 7th round stoppage). He's similar to Ortiz in this respect: had he faced one of the weaker champions or even AJ in 2016 he would have probably won a title/titles.

 

Povetkin had some brutal KOes

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We all do know how powerful managers and promoters Huck had.

2007th : Huck get title shot vs Cunningham in Germany for IBF World title. Huck lost via TKO.
2009h : Huck get title shot for WBO World title and had won this one.
He had successful career and then decided to prove himself in HW division.
2012 th: Huck get fight vs Povetkin for WBA Regular HW belt while he kept his WBO World title belt.
When he did not had won, he continued to compete in CW division, was WBO World champ.
2015 th: Huck lost vs Glowacki via TKO? Yeah.
Then he get title fight for IBO title and had won.
2017 th: Huck get fight vs Briedis for WBC World title. despite already had 3 lost fights in fight record ( 2 from these via stoppage ).

Huck lost fight vs Briedis.
What happened with Huck?
He again get next title fight vs Usyk for Usyk's WBO World title and in GERMANY.

Huck I think was maybe most well managed boxer in europe.
He also was lucky.
Why?
If the boxer challenged for title and lost title fight as challenger or contestant for title ( not as current reigning champ ) IT IS difficult to get next title shot soon in the same pro boxing org.

Huck fought for IBF title, failed vs Cunningham. Nothing wrong, he get some wins and tasted WBO route: was succesful.
Then when he lost vs then in prime Glowacki version, he attempted IBO route and was successful.
After this he attempted to get WBC World title, failed vs Briedis.
Nothing wrong: after short time he get next title shot: vs Usyk for Usyk's WBO World Cruiserweight title.


With Povetkin situation was really different: Almost all HW belts except 1 ( WBC World title ) usually in this timeframe had 1 boxer: Wlad!!!!!!!
This means that if you fight vs Wlad for his 4 or 5 belts ( Wlad had The Ring, WBA Super, IBF, WBO and usually in his reign timeframe also IBO world titles ) u are pushed back very seriously IF you will not win this fight.

With Wlad and Vitali too this was interesting situation: brother will not fight vs brother ( this is easy to understand, especially if they are from country with relatively religious population ) : Vitali usually had only WBC belt, other belts had Wlad and we cos this did not had saw UNDISPUTED champ in this HW era.