1) I did not claim that your comment about German speakers compared to others was only about me-but it seemed to include me which does not apply. I have no problemo about your observations about them in general. 2) I did review my last post-I see no place where I wrote "by the time Joe Louis fought Joe Louis". If you meant I wrote that in a prior post, tell me. Even if I did this, it had to be clear from the context that i was speaking all about Marciano fighting Louis. 3) I knew you were talking about Moore fighting Valdez. 4) I do not know what you mean claiming I wrote Tunney 3X consecutively. Cut & paste this & tell me what post it started with so I can see if it is actually an error. 5) You already said that the language was too difficult for you, now you change the claim seemingly to copy my own about you making mistakes. This does not seem sincere. 6) Once again we cannot know what you mean when you refer to fanboy & liar-since you used the wrong words a few times in one short paragraph, such as "shall". But I cut & paste what YOU said here: "Look at it he had a much greater chin, all time top 5 in Heavyweight, not just slightly, that is just dishonest and fanboy speech, but not objective". So the *best* I can assume is that maybe you are not lying with your senseless assertion that I am lying...But maybe you do not even realize what the words you wrote meant. Which was that anyone who disagreed with you that Marciano had a top5 ALG HW chin is a fanboy & a liar! Which would make almost EVERYONE here a liar, since almost nobody, even gig Marciano fans, would claim he was tested enough to prove he had that kind of punch resistence! 7) You are saying Bert Sugar said Louis was not that fast when he started & just hit hard? OK, please send me any link to his quote. But Bert Sugar was a colorful storyteller-most all in the know recognize that he was, like Foreman, fast & loose with the facts. His ratings of ATGs comically favored the old timers. 8) IF Louis was somehow not fast of hand when he started-yet I have no evidence of that yet-have you not seen how virtually everyone says Louis had lightning fast combinations? Like a "Triphammer", as oldtimer here Bert who saw him wrote. And that they were around as fast as anyone, including Tyson, at HW. 9) Who is an expert? So many people who worked with boxers, often boxed, trainers, some managers...Eddie Futch, Angelo Dundee (but he could exaggerate) writers like Monte Cox...Some folks on THIS website that are historians & authors. But agree with me about what aspect of Frazier? Whatever it is his trainer Futch will almost certainly agree lol! 10) Yes Louis lost his timing late in his career-he said in his book he saw the openings against Ezzard Charles but just could not react fast enough. But that does not mean-unlike yes, most aging boxers-he kept his power. And it was not endurance-since he got a decision over the distance in 80% of his final 10 fights, this was not a big issue. Even if it had been, he could have KOed folks early to avoid tiring. He just did not have the power anymore. You cannot contest the quotes by Marciano about him having a "nothing" right hand. 11) He boxed when very few had a TV. I said that he DID carry opponents early in his career, due to racism too...But in his final 10 fights, unlike before, he just could not KO most all decent competition. But he was still a World Class boxer. 12) We totally disagree that Marciano, who fought few people even 200 lbs., & none who were as good a s a fairly washed up Joe Louis, had a top 5 all time chin! Again your language is a big problem-I managed to decipher the vast majority of your meaning this time. But you say Tua was "stopped" twice. You must be unaware that this word means a KO or a TKO. Tua was never "stopped", & like Cobb, faced some enormous punchers. Cobb was not a great boxer-but like him later being an actor or getting an advanced egree, that is totally irrelevant. In fact, because he had little defense, he TOOK so many more hard shots than Marciano. [url]https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/4343[/url] Marciano never faced anyone who hit as hard as a Foremean, Shavers, Lewis... 13) Your extreme bias is showing when you say Marciano had a better chin than Chuvalo! Chuvalo was stopped when not hitting back against Foreman-he did not seem in danger of going down, but was absorbing too much unansweredd punishment. He fough so much longer, so many more rounds than Rocky, & against many really hard hitters, never down (except once when it was ruled a slip) as an an amateur, a pro, or in sparring... Literally maybe nobody on this website or any with experts would agree with you about this. Start a poll. 14) Dude, you bias is also reflected in your reasoning about the ages of Marciano & Frazier. I challenged you to ADMIT when you were wrong. Two points are embarrassingly obvious: A) Even if the dates you speculated upon were correct, it was more than the "at most 2 or 3 years" age difference you insisted upon. B) Your reasoning was faulty, & mainly you avoided even looking anything up!! Marciano had list last fight literally 20 days after he tuned 32. Now even if you could when he retired-you may not know that guys can be called champion until they retire but are supposed to defend the title ~ every 6 months-he was in neother case 33. You likely saw he retired in 1956, & did not bother to or think to check if he was even near 33. [url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_heavyweight_boxing_champions[/url] Your reasoning about Frazier was even more lax. He was "likely" born in 1944? He was, but why guess? His last fight was "about 1980"? Why not actually look it up? In fact his final fight, like Ali, was in December, 1981! Even if you did not have all the dates wrong, your logic is faulty if you never check to see what months they were born & last fought-without that you can be off by a year on either or both ends. So as a matter of indisputable fact Frazier fought for the final time as a professional 9not counting the exhibition against the former Mayor...) when he was within some days, NOT a month, less than six (6) years OLDER than when Marciano fought his last bout. This is "a lot" older-barely turned 32 vs. very close to 38. You can seem to enhance your credibility & integrity by admitting these facts-that no sane person could debate.
Frazier in 4 or 5. Tunney would wish he was in the ring with Dempsey. This might be more one sided than the Jimmy Ellis walkover. Gene has nothing to keep Joe off him and that ain't good. To beat Frazier you have to back him up/ hurt him. It took a monster to do it.
Insulting my age & eyes speculatively-not having any idea about either one-is petty, mean & sad. I am unsure what you mean by it being in the previous posts-I was correct in describing Sullivan's weight, once, & there is great evidence that the excellent power of Louis was gone. Marciano said so, & he could not KO most opponents since his comeback. Bert Sugar was a great storyteller & knew much boxing. He was also highly biased in many ways, including towards old timers, & imprecise with the facts. Show me any actual quotes from that time that said anything other than Louis had very fast hands. Hell we can clearly see this on film-while he was fairly slow of foot, his jab & combinations were among the fastest at HW. I cannot think who was faster at his size/at least around 200 lbs.-or even clearly as fast-until Patterson came along. You & your ego have an *extreme* inability to admit undeniable facts about something as easy to prove as AGE. 1) You changed the goalposts to when Marciano retired. Go back & see I said, & keep saying, I referred to how old they were in their last fight. 2) Your numbers are still off. Marciano was within 3 weeks after of his 32nd birthday when he last fought. By no sane definition was he "mid-thirties"-or 33. Even when he retired next year he was still some months short of 33: from his Wikipedia page: "Marciano announced his retirement on April 27, 1956, aged 32.[url][18]"[/url] Joe Frazier was also just some days BEFORE his 38th Birthday when he last fought (December 1981). Again from his Wikipedia page (& nobody disputes his date of birth): "Born January 12, 1944". Do the very simple math. That is by any sane definition in his LATE thirties. So like before when you said that their age difference in their last fight was "maybe 2 or 3 years"...It is *false* to say that "maybe there was a 4 year age difference". Even if you use the date Rocky retired-when the question & what I actually claimed was always was when the last had a pro fight...The age difference was well over 5 years. Ask anyone here or just look it up yourself: Frazier was a month & change under SIX (6) years older than Marciano when you compare the dates of their final professional fights. Your unwillingness to look at the details with any intellectual rigor or fairness-note I do not assume you lied-anyway the facts are indisputable so it would be self-defeating.... Severely handicaps your credibility on everything else. I said I think Marciano had a better chin than Frazier, *but* due to fighting bigger harder hitters overall, it is unsure. But there is a range of error here-& it is also unsure if his chin is better is it by a small margin or more. You think most agree with you here? Tell you what, we both know that popularity does not determine who is correct, but I am happy to start a thread about it. Where I can include choices of whose chin was likely better, & by how much. Also how confident they are in the answer. Bet you the average response will be Rocky, but not by a large ,margin at all! You did not notice that I AGREE that losing timing & condition often erodes effective power. Observe that I do not make an ageist or eyesight insult, lol! But I also said that observers at the time like Marciano noted his vaunted right hand triphammer had also greatly declined in power. Since his power relied largely on speed, not muscle mass or being heavy handed...His top power did not carry over past 35. Foreman? We can SEE his great power even up to his late 40's. And all he fought echoed this, just as we can see his speed & reflexes had really slowed. Evander Holyfield said he hit him the *hardest* of anyone. Thought all his teeth were knocked out. Foreman's mere jabs were knocking Holyfield out of his range! It seems like another language issue when you claim Tua was knocked clean out in the first round. Again, Tua was *never* KOed, & he fought some Big Hitters. Also I *said* that Chuvalo was down-once in an endless career, amateur, pro, in sparring-& it was ruled a slip. Biased because of saying he & Chuvalo had better chins than Marciano?!? Start a thread there, it will be hard to find ANYONE who thinks Marciano had a chin as good as Chuvalo! You may find a very few who think his whiskers are as good as Tua. But it will be the exception. Start a poll about the age difference between Frazier & Marciano when they *last fought*. Claim it was 2 or 3, or what you later said was "maybe 4" years. The facts are exceptionally easy to check. Your insistence on being wrong about a matter not of judgement or opinion but easily verifiable FACT... Would make you a laughingstock.
