Tunney v Frazier

Good lord, this is all the stuff that amateurs learn. We aren't talking amateurs here but two pros experienced at the highest levels.

Don't you think an Ali or Mathis or Quarry or Machen or Ellis might have known a few things about the sport beyond the amateur level?

 

None of those fighters were on the level of Tunney technically. Not close in actuality.

 

I do also believe Tunney could effectively neutralize Frazier's hook for good portions of the fight. Problem is, he still can't win this fight vs. a peak Frazier. Just don't see it.

 

You are overstating the factor of technical ability and are, in fact, overstating Tunney's technical abilities. Again, if you think boxing is figure skating or gymnastics, you need to do some rethinking. We all like to go ooh and ahhh when we recognize a well executed technique we ourselves have practiced and learned. Do you think a guy like Firpo gave one sh*t about that, tho, when he was within an inch of the title? How Bonecrusher Smith? Douglas didn't win the title because someone told him a long jab would keep Tyson at bay. He won it because he had the physical tools and mental strength (at least that night) to execute this plan.

There is the much greater element of physicality to victory that you are dismissing in preference to some clean lines that Tunney draws on films. Frazier's explosiveness, his insane stamina and relentlessness, his power... these elements would disrupt Tunney's figure forms. Dempsey, by his own admission, had no legs in either fight and cornered, and for all intents, stopped Tunney with one physical charge.

 

Frazier had the will to win of an ATG......but so did Tunney. Gene was the greater fighter and superbly conditioned and this point cannot be overemphasized. Tunney won't wilt as did lesser fighters like Ellis, Mathis. He won't wilt like lesser conditioned fighters such as Ali in 1971. Tunney was not a sucker for a left hook as was Ali. Frazier would find Tunney a very elusive target and even more so as all Gene needs to defend against is that one punch. All time great fighters can defend against one punch. All time great fighters exploit significant technical flaws and Frazier had a huge flaw.

 

Love this.

 

So Ali with 20+ win in HW title fights and 30+ wins over ranked HWs is not an ATG, but Tunny with 2 wins in HW title fights and a handful wins over HW contenders is?

And Ali's technical flaws you speak of were mainly holding his hands low, which Tunney did as well. Ali did also lean his head back, but that's an issue against straight punches, not hooks. A low right hand is very much an issue against left hooks, though.

 

Yes I would, and I would say a prime Dempsey catches and stops Tunney.

 

Yes it did but , had it been enforced, it would not have changed who emerged the winner.

 

Greb first beat Tunney when Tunney was pre-prime. I have read Greb smashed the top of his head into Tunney's face, blinding him in round one and also read it was a punch. Without film, who knows. What we do know it Tunney had it tough and went the distance. The crowd gave him a standing ovation for doing so.

As Tunney matured and grew, he was too much for Greb. Tunney wanted the 6th fight. Greb said no way as he was badly thrashed in the 5th fight.

I do agree with the

However, you never seem to apply them to old time fighters. Ie, Corbett, Jeffries, Johnson, etc... and Tunney was a fast one.

 

I understand you don't know the motivation of either handlers on why they didn't protest the fight. What I find odd is, nobody protested it at all, not even newspaper folk or random people. Often times things get reported and brought to light from people not directly related to the controversy. They uncovered something or heard about it and brought more attention to it. Here, we don't see a newspaper article talking about it or even mentioning the obvious rules violations, multiple time at that. Don't you think that is a bit strange?

 

Low guard does not mean you are easier to hit. Count the left hooks anyone of the opponents in Tunneys filmed bouts land.

Ali never learned proper technical boxing. This is why once his incredible speed became more ordinary that he covered up along the ropes rather than use boxing technique.

 

I have read dozens of articles from the day of and days after the bout. Not one word concerning a neutral corner rule.

 

No, it wouldn't have changed who the winner was, but maybe Bonavena would have had a better chance of surviving to the final bell. A decision loss is better than being stopped.

 

I accidentally clicked Tunney by KO, but Smokin Joe definitely has a chance to knock Gene out with the left hook. I don't think Tunney would knockout Frazier because he's not George Foreman...he would rather outbox then brawl.