Tunney V Sharkey, Willard, Brennan,Miske, Firpo?

I think that's arguable, but even if it is absolutely true, as evidence of a supposed vulnerability to clever boxers, it is sparse in the extreme.

And my point is that none of these men DO equal Tunny on technical brilliance, and that fighters arguably better than all of them (apart from Gibbons, whom he stopped) had failed to "find an angle". Boxing is more absolute than punching. If you can't out boxyour opponent, you can't. Allowing that Firpo hit hard enough to break Tunney's legs, we then have to acknowledge that it could happen at any point in the fight.

That is, Miske either can or cannot outbox Tunney, and we know he almost certainly couldn't. Firpo is probably physically capable of knocking him out.

In short, if Miske had met and out-boxed Tunney in his prime, I would have to re-think my view of him in detail. If Firpo landed a perfect punch and knocked him unconscious, I would take a more "**** happens" point of view.

Nah, that's just not true at all. If it were, results like Julian Jackson KO Graham, Pickney KO Jones, Tarver KO Roy Jones, Smith KO Johnson, Ray KO Charles, Satterfield KO Johnson, Choynski KO Jack Johnson wouldn't occur. Now maybe none of these are an exact template of Tunney-Firpo but they all pit "elusive technicians" against people who can take a punch with the result being the technican who can take a punch being KTFO.

Now let's have some examples of clearly inferior boxers out-boxing great boxers. It's much rarerer by definition!

And I never said otherwise. What I was demonstrating is that Tunney, based upon the reality of his career seems more likley to be stopped - nearly twice - than out-boxed - which seems never to have happened.

There is a better chance of that than his being out-boxed by inferior boxers, in my opinion.

Again, I haven't said otherwise. What I am saying is that if they had never met, then everyone would be saying, "oh, if Braddock could out-box Baer, Schmeling could do it." I think you would be one of those people.

But because they met, and a don't give a **** puncher managed to overwhelm the vastly superior technician, we know otherwise. I wouldn't expect that type of fight here, of course.

 

It's an 8 round fight. I'd consider it being evidence of Gene's "vulnerability" to boxers in the same way that Meehan proves Dempsey is so vulnerable. Almost not at all, because whilst it happened, Dempsey and Tunney both excelled against this type afterwards. Trying to paint Tunney's pre-prime draw with Loughran as somehow crucial in deciphering his chances with superb boxers when he thrashed Carpantier, Gibbons, Smith and Levinsky is not really a tenable position. At least in Dempsey's case there are actual losses to Meehan combined with a vulnerability to Tunney himself.

Later in this post you talk about extending the benefit of the doubt to Tunney over a single loss to Miske as Miske merely "having his number". But this 8 round fight somehow proves that Tunney was "vulnerable to boxers". This is contradictory. In fact, believing them both to be true seems rather ludicrous?

But he beat up all the cuties he met apart from Loughran with ease.

Can we have some examples?

Here's the problem with that: Miske never - ever - outboxed a great boxer. It literally is something that hasn't happened. Ever. His best result against a boxer was against Dillon where he seems to have done what the big man should always do, turn it into a fight with sheer aggression.

Firpo has never KO'd a great technician - assuming you aren't allowing Brennan, whom Miske also beat - but his power is confirmed. We know of it. It's a fact.

So you are betting your mortgage on something which has never happened against something that is demonstrated. You personally have a great deal less respect for Firpo's power than I do - this is likely why.

It's a little like picking Machen to out-box Ali rather than Shavers to KO him. Both are extremely unlikely but Shavers was probably one punch away from doing just that.

As i've said, this would represent a boogeyman encounter, wheras Loughran NOT beating Tunney somehow shows that he is vulnerable to boxers. Makes no sense at all.

Well the chances of Darrly Pinckney (24-42 for a career, 20% ko) knocking out Junior Jones (who out-boxed Orlando Canizales and Marco Barrera) is, in my opinion, far, far, far less likley than a huge heavyweight puncher KOing a great HW technician. It is one of the most impossible results in the history of boxing, but it occured.

Billy Smith is underestimated technically but I wouldn't describe him as "a technian" by any means. Johnson, on the other hand, is arguably the most definitive technician in boxing history. One punch did it.

Jackson was nowhere near Graham's status in terms of "cuteness". Clear classes between them in that singular aspect. One punch.

Some of the examples i've provided may be objectionable - they were listed, after all, completely off the top of my head. There are dozens more. But I think this contradicts your "lost cause" point. I think that is something you absolutely cannot claim in the wake of these results.

And I don't think that Firpo would win. He might not win a round. But history has shown us, over and over and over again that a big puncher is never out of it. That's just a fact. It's inarguable.

...but can we have some examples?

 

He's probably undermentioned full stop, that is an insane upset. He unbuckeld a coming Espadas Jnr., too. Which is a great sentence.