Just curious, what do you define as Dempsey's prime? Also out of curiousity, I wonder what Dempsey's record against ranked (or at least, concensus) contenders was. There are alot of early KO's over nobodies in that 1917-1921ish span. Well, I guess we can rest assured that if Tyson holds his nuts and stops defending himself, he'll get knocked out. By this logic, Tyson KO'd Douglas in the eighth round of their fight. He must have carried his power late, too.
1918-1921 was his peak. It wasn't until he joined up with Jack Kearns that he started getting consistently good training and managment, after 1921 he started deteriorating from his frequent layoffs and new lifestyle. Records from back then aren't complete, and I'm not sure who would qualify as a concencus contender or not. Fred Fulton, Carl Morris, Homer Smith Gunboat Smith, Porky Dan Flynn and Bill Brennan were all contenders for Willards title at the time Dempsey beat them, I think. I'm sure there are others. Almost definitely. Well, Tunney was down longer than Douglas was, and Tunney had never been kocked down in his career before.
There's quite some nonsense here. First of all, Frazier was one of the busiest punchers in the divisions history. As other here already have said: a somewhat depleted Frazier was in the HW-fight with most punches thrown. To say that Tunney had a better record than Ali - are you drunk? His victory over Greb is like Ali would have beaten Monzon - would that in any way enhanced his standing? Guys like Liston, Frazier and Foreman were miles better than the over-the-hill version of Dempsey that Tunney bested. They would have massacred that version of Dempsey. Fact still stands, Ali was faster, more skilled and had 30 lbs on Tunney, and is much, much, much more proven at HW. That you use a MW (that he also lost to) as one of Tunney's greatest wins proves this. Ali would have won. End of story. Tyson would have KO'd Dempsey. I can't really see anyone at 190 lbs trading with Tyson. Yes, Dempsey was very tough and had a very good chin, but that was proven in an era with generally small heavyweights (compared to the ones Tyson fought). Tyson KO'd 220+ lbs guys that had never been stopped before. ****, he KO'd Botha with one punch, and Botha could take a punch (but wasn't good for much else).
I'm sorry, but this is a load of rubbish. How you can sit there and try to spin it that Dempsey was this destroyer of monsters... it's an utter cheek. The best fighter he ever fought was Tunney, who beat him handily both times. He drew the colour line, and defended against faded light heavies and bar room brawlers. Tyson got beat by skilled, powerful, genuine heavyweights. Jack fought very few of those, and none the caliber of a Holyfield, Lewis or on-form Douglas. As for you calling Joe a non-puncher and a cheap imitation...really, what do I say to this? It's just so off-base it's scary.
1. 60's Ali, by UD. Tunney would have a fair chance of getting a decision against 70's Ali if he boxes at range, used his speed, movement and footwork and forces Ali to emerge from his comfort zone. 2. Tyson destroys Dempsey. 5th round stoppage. 3. Frazier grinds Dempsey down for a late stoppage. Somewhere near the 10th round.
Size does matter. A bigger man with the same skill as a smaller man will in most cases beat the smaller man. A prime Ali had more than 20 pounds on Tunney and was also faster and more skilled (maybe not more skilled for his time, but in absolute terms - since boxing have evolved). Dempsey, who held his hands very low, would be destroyed coming in to Tyson. The things you say about Frazier are just not grounded in any sort of reality. Frazier ALWAYS had good workrate. It's true that his work against Foreman mainly consisted of getting off the gorund, but Foreman was by far the opponent he had most difficulty against. Your going on about how Tunney beat Greb is just laughable. We're talking about heavyweights here! Sincerely, would you rate Ali higher if he had beaten Duran and Monzon? He did beat the best light heavy-weight of his time with not too much fuss, when past his prime at that. Tunney shouldn't get credit for beating Greb, his legacy as HW rather takes a knock from him losing to Greb, a middleweight. And before you go into all the stuff about size doesn't matter, do you really see Holmes or Tyson having trouble with Hagler? If Tyson had met Hagler and lost even once in a series it would seriously tarnish his legacy. Tyson met the best light-heavy of his day and had him for breakfast. Dempsey would at best been a lunch for Tyson. Tunney would get a whole new taste of the jab against Ali, and would do well if he stayed around to hear the final bell. Ali did stop a number guys who hadn't ever been stopped before and a couple who haven't been stopped before or since, so of course he could have stopped Tunney.
Tyson had at least as fast hands as Dempsey and more power. Why can't you possibly be faster than someone who's smaller? Tyson was faster than Quarry, Schmeling, Braddock, Marciano etc. Ali was faster than SRR. For you size seems to be little more than an impedement. So I guess you think weight-classes are meant to protect heavyweights from flyweights? Size isn't the only factor, but it is a factor. Yeah, Douglas and Holy KO'd Tyson, but an extremely crude Firpo came close to KO'ing Dempsey. That must mean that Tyson could do it easily, must it not?
Greb Tunney was not a heavyweight bout though. Tunney was UNDER the heavyweight limit,(Day weights in at the time too) Tunney loseing to Greb or beating Greb should NOT take any knock or credit for Tunney's heavyweight resume. Tunney was natrual lightheavyweight.
Eh? Is a matchup not meant to be the best versions of each fighter? In that case we're talking about '88 Tyson here ... ... if Dempsey was put through the ropes by Firpo **** knows what Tyson would do. Tyson is just plain bigger, better more powerful and has better durability than Dempsey. At least equal handspeed and defence and to point a fact I actually think he had the better chin. Dempsey is going to get systematically destroyed here, early too. Tyson TKO4
Foreman is only considered flawed because Ali stopped him. Before that he was viewed as invincible, as was Liston when Ali beat him. I never said that Ali certainly would stop Tunney. My prediction was a wide UD, but I said that it by no means was impossible that Ali would stop him. Ali had enough power to stop guys like Bonavena, Foreman and Wepner. Guys who had never been stopped before or since. He was also the first to stop Liston and Lyle, and the only one beside Foreman who stopped Frazier. I don't think Dempsey had faster hands than Tyson. There was a thread about Tyson's speed earlier today and no one that I saw picked Dempsey as faster. As I already stated, I do think Dempsey's stamina was better, but that he wouldn't be along enough for it to matter much. I think your talk about the "overrated 70's" is nonsense. There was no colour line in the 70's and champions defended their title frequently against ranked contenders. Dempsey defended his title very infrequently and ducked the best opposition (Wills for example), so how was his era so impressive? You say that Frazier only gets credit for beating Ali, but what about Tunney then? Just about the only one he beat at HW was a faded Dempsey. Frazier at least beat a lot of other top ranked guys. And why would Ali get credit if he beat SRR at LHW? Joey Maxim did, and I don't hear anyone calling him an ATG at HW.
Ok, yeah, you are insane. Frazier was past it in both fights with Foreman and was probably more focused on not getting his head knocked off to begin to mount a significant offense. Also, he was never a quick starter and didn't get a chance to get "smokin" in either Foreman fight. As for him being a quitter: **** you. His corner forced him to stop, and even if it was him that asked for it that proves nothing, Ali even wanted to stop at that point, that was one of the most grueling heavyweight contests of all time. I said that Ali had all of the physical advantages. When it comes to Ali and Tunney, they have similar styles but Ali was bigger, faster (yeah, faster), stronger, hit harder and had accomplished much more at heavyweight. Greb was a middleweight and he is P4P better than anyone Ali beat, but Tunney accomplished Jack-**** at heavyweight, whereas Ali has one of the best resume's at heavyweight of all time.
