Tunney vs. Dubois

A very good fighter against a great champion, who fought a century apart. There is a big size difference between them (Tunney in heavyweight was always under 200 pounds, a cruiser today).

For me we can say that Dubois faced the Tunney of this era, that is Usyk, and we know how it ended. So in this game of fantasy matches I say that Tunney's footwork, speed and great Ring IQ would have been too much for Dubois, who would have felt frustrated against an opponent who would have taken his time and distance, and in the end Daniel would have said 'I quit'. Tunney by tko in the last rounds.

 

Usyk has very good power. Yes, Usyk does not hit as hard as Foreman the way that some silly posters in the general boxing forum claim.

However, Usyk is a 220 lb man who has good power and comparable power to Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes. I will say Ali hit slightly harder than Usyk and Usyk hits slightly harder than Holmes but the differences are small at that level.

Tunney was a 190 lb guy and unlike physical freaks like Marciano or Dempsey, he did not have exceptional power for his size. Oh sure, he had above average power for his size but he certainly was not some exceptional puncher. Hence, i don't think that Tunney can hit as hard as Usyk/Ali/Holmes etc.

In order to defeat a quality puncher, you generally need both great defense and at least good power to keep the more powerful man off you. We can't compare Usyk and Tunney. Not only does Usyk hit harder than Tunney, he is also a southpaw and his left hand is hard for opponents to read which makes it reluctant for them to come in.

Additionally, Usyk has spent years fighting big punchers - from Beterbiev and Joyce in the amateurs to Breidis and Joshua in the pros. The only notable puncher Tunney fought was Dempsey and Jack no longer had the footwork to get close to Tunney to land with any consistency.

Tunney doesn't have the height and reach to keep Dubois away. He doesn't have the southpaw left which is going to make Dubois hesitant to come in. If Tunney could punch like Dempsey, Dubois might be reluctant to come in but the simple fact is that he can't.

Additionally, Tunney kept his hands low which worked well in that era. However, Dubois has long arms and an extremely powerful jab so keeping your hands low is inviting trouble.

My guess is Tunney outboxes Dubois for a couple of rounds but Dubois is undeterred and keeps coming forward. Dubois lands a power jab at some point which would snap Tunney's head back and drive him close to the ropes. Once Dubois has him cornered, he will unleash big punches. Tunney isn't accustomed to being hit with that type of ko power. Tunney tries his best to survive but the fight is stopped.

None of this is to diminish Tunney's greatness. Tunney is an ATG but at light-heavyweight. I firmly believe size is overrated but sometimes the size and power difference is too much to overcome. Just because Dubois likely stops Tunney doesn't mean Dubois is an ATG and Tunney isn't. Obviously Tunney is an ATG and not Dubois.

Dubois tko 5.

 

Great post by @dmt above. He says it well - size is overrated but this is just too much to overcome.

Tunney was great for his time but Dubois is a good fighter himself and his size and power is genuinely another century above Tunney's.

 

Very good analysis, very clear, I like it, you wrote all the very right and true things in my opinion, giving a fair dimension of the boxers you named.
Regarding the prediction I said Tunney inside the distance in this fantasy match game but things could have easily gone as you said.

 

Tunney knocks him out, with a jab.

 

Didn't read most of this post, don't care too much about the thread- But I simply can't agree with Usyk supposedly having "similar power to Ali and Holmes", and I sure don't think he hit harder than Larry. I don't think that Usyk would've been able to stop half the guys that those two did.

What makes you think that Usyk had power comparable to, if not BETTER than those guys? He's knocked out one guy at heavyweight. A guy who has a reputation for getting knocked out on the episode end of a jab. One knockdown against Fury (not exactly that impressive considering how many times he's been down), and who else? Chazz Witherspoon?

He has pop in his punches, and he's a southpaw... He's gonna catch people off guard, he's gonna hurt guys sometimes, but he sure as hell doesn't size up to these two when it comes to punching power.

 

I don't think his power is better than Ali. Hence, i rated Ali higher. However, i do think its comparable.

Usyk is a risk averse fighter. Yes, he lacks ko and he doesn't have the same finishing instinct as Holmes, for example.

But when he hits guys, you can see a noticeable reaction. Mairis Breidis, for example, is known for having an excellent chin that was apparently good enough to stand up to Wladamir in sparring. There were moments when Usyk was unloading on Breidis where you could see Breidis feeling hurt and shaking his head.

Usyk is facing considerably bigger and stronger heavyweights than Holmes did. And when he hits them, you can see their visible reaction change. Its almost as if they didn't expect him to hit like that.

Fury is relatively easy to knock down, but no one else gave him that kind of a sustained beating. I don't think he has ever looked to visibly beaten. Cunningham knocked him down but he didn't look visibly hurt. Wilder did hurt him but Wilder is a huge hitter. Almost half his knockdowns came against a huge hitter in Wilder which is hardly a shame.

I think given the sheer size of the guys he is facing combined with their visible reactions to getting hit, i can safely conclude Usyk is comparable to those 2 in terms of power. Not in terms of finishing ability. He could have finished AJ in the first fight but his corner instructed him not to and he obliged. He was unlucky not to get the stoppage vs Fury. The ko percentage is a bit misleading.

 

Dubois via incredibly brutal knockout

 

I didn't say you said that about Ali.

But power at cruiserweight (where Usyk was notably better, younger, and gets most of his stoppages from) does not translate to power at heavyweight, we can see that. Hurting Briedis is a notable feat down there, but it doesn't translate to anything substantial above. I also don't think sparring stories hold much weight to me.

Like I said, he has snap in his punches, and the guys aren't gonna expect it cause he's coming up from cruiser- But he still only stopped the guys who were easiest to take out. Couldn't drop Chisora, couldn't drop Joshua, and couldn't drop Dubois till the fight was over. It's not a negative thing that he's not stopping these guys, but he sure as hell doesn't pack a punch like Ali or Holmes.

He looked hurt cause Usyk was able to do more without an instant knockdown, he hit him with that perfect left and he didn't lay off of him. It wasn't like the others where he just went down (probably cause Usyk couldn't just put him down like that), but instead... BOOM! Left hand lands before he starts chasing him around the ring laying heat on Fury before he ultimately slumps into the corner. The reason that Tyson looked so out of it was because he wasn't dropped.

Ali and Holmes just have better records of hurting/stopping/dropping men with better chins, even with the size differential, I don't feel like Usyk sizes up the same.

Also, the call in Fury I of it just being a knockdown was fair. Tyson got back up and fought on fine for the rest of the fight, keeping it just as competitive as it was earlier.

 

Dubois walks through him and brutally puts him to sleep...

 

I'm a big Usyk supporter but I disagree on the notion that he has power at HW. Yes Fury was "visibly beaten" but he had been hit with about 100 punches. Usyk wins through attrition not by power. I can't see him ever with a one hitter quitter vs current heavies.

Getting back to the thread, Tunney would probably force DDD to a 10 rounder like he made Dempsey fight because he (Tunney) would understand the predicament he was in. Keeping DooBoys off him for 12 rounds would be impossible so he'd hope he could survive 10 rounds. When, and not if, DDD lits a combination on him like Jack did Tunney wouldn't need a long count, he'd need a ring doctor.

DDD by brutal ko.

 

Tunney gets ramshackled.

 

I find them absurd ... it's like saying Benny Leonard vs Mathew Saad Muhammad. Size and weight matters. The degree is based on the caliber of the fighters being matched .... An A level much smaller man can have a shot against a C much larger man but it is all predicated on the ref, the ring size, the distance , the gloves and so much more. The bottom line is that divisions have existed for a long time and have value. When was the last 185 pound heavyweight champion who weighted 185 ?