Tyson Above Holyfield - Can It Be Justified?

Wrongly conditioned or wrongly prepared? Probably both. If you tee off on a guy for 10 rounds and hes still in front of you, something has to be changed. Whether its moving or ad******g your output down to a decision win.
If a guy comes at you and "bum rushes" you and takes away your distance where you like to operate, you have to know how to deal with that, whether by tieing up, stepping to the side, moving or fighting inside.
If you go into a fight against a guy who has a great chin and will most likely be standing at the final bell, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know you need to pace yourself or box and move more at a controlled pace. Im pretty sure Wlad boxed 12 rounds in the gym before that fight as well. Im also pretty confident a fighter who fights monthly is pretty well conditoned as opposed to a fighter who fights every 4 or six months.

If he wasnt prepared by his trainer for it, well thats another point I would make and another reason why I feel the way I do. Its not necessarily only a factor of the fighters abilities, but also because they were never taught, and thats probably the reason why both Wladmir and Lennox Lewis improved so much in other areas of their game once they hooked up with a real teacher.:good

 

Not necessarily. It´s all a styles thing, there were always long range fighters without much inside game.

I know your point by now. I don´t really disagree with it. I just think that it does not make them worse fighters. And no Tyson´s resume is not better than Lewis´.

True. But Wlad was inexperienced against Purrity. Like I said it was bad match-making. You don´t put a guy who never went beyond 8 rounds - and this just once, all other fights of him lasted not longer than 6 rounds - against a guy known to last the distance with big hitters. Dumb move. A fighter is trained for the distance he will go in his next fight. Yeah, Wlad will have sparred 12 rounds in the gym. But sparring is something diffrent than actual fighting. A guy who drives a Ferrari can´t win a F1 race. Add to that his high fight frequency, his bad preperation/condition, a not so great chin and his inexperience and you have a loss.Those things happen in boxing. I don´t hold this loss much against him.
Purrity did not "bumrush" Wlad. Additionally Wlad had some infighting skills back then. He threw every punch in the book including uppercuts and short hooks. He also took more risks. He just abondoned this when he took Stewart as his trainer. Who made him an outside and safety first fighter. Watch the fight again. Purrity barely landed a punch until Wlad gassed. He was a punching back. And when he gassed he didn´t know what to do. They weren´t prepared for that. They probably thought that guy is just a stiff like the other guys Wlad fought until then.

Brewster was clearly the fault of him. He thought he would just bomb Brewster out, believed in his own ability to knock everybody out too much and payed the price. He gassed and got KOed. A mistake he never repeated since.

Btw. I´m not some Klitschko fan. I´m German so I followed their careers from their very first televised fights. I know what they are capable of and what not. I rank Wlad on the verge of Top20 and his brother between 25 and 30. That´s fair I think.

I disagree. Stewart basically took away much of Wlad´s arsenal, dimensions and skill to make him more efficient. Skillwise he actually got worse with Stewart. The trainers now are roughly the same as in the early 90s, late 80s.
Sdunek, the former trainer of Wlad, made nearly 10 fighters to worldchamps, so he isn´t a bad trainer. Him and Wlad just didn´t work out that well.

 

You and I are just going to have to disagree on this overall. Taking away some of a fighters arsenal is not necessarily a bad thing if he improves in other areas, going back to my point about being more well rounded. Teaching a fighter defense, proper positioning, and fight pace, is just as important than being an offensive fighter, and skillwise he has improved in all those areas. It has nothing to with Sdunek being bad, its just Steward is better overall in my opinion, especially at enhancing a fighters best attributes and keeping them out of harms way of their poor ones.

Yes but Wlad wasnt going up against a Ferrari, he was the Ferrari and he was fighting a Ford Truck not a F1 racecar. At that point in his career he was not over his head going against a guy who is just tough but very limited skillwise. It was just a factor of what I said above. You absolutely can prepare for a 12 round fight in the gym.
You want to tell me Hasim Rahman was a better boxer and more prepared to fight Ross Purrity in his 12th pro fight than Wlad? Rahman had never gone past four rounds up until that point.
How about Mike Grant in his 19th pro fight, I think he had gone 8 in a few fights previously but he went 10 with Purrity??

No way. You have a few guys who were assistants to the old school guys like Roach, Brooks, Torrance, Shields, Rooney, etc. Some are good some are not, but most of the old school guys are dead or retired by the mid 90's.

 

Those and also his perceived greater H2H ability in his prime. I rate Tyson as one of the 5 most dangerous HW's of all time.

 

I was thinking about just letting it be even in my previous post but it seems I just couldn´t let go

I can see where you are coming from. You have your points and I agree with some of them. I don´t agree with your basic oppinion. But good effort, you gave me some things to think about :good

 

When had he ever weighed 212 for a fight before?? That was his career high weight, and more than 10 pounds over his ideal weight as a HW.

And Spinks never "grew into" that weight; he had hired Mackie Shilstone to develop a specific diet just to bulk himself up to 200.

Yes, that's what's in question here.

It doesn't matter what his speed was at 240; the issue is whether or not his speed was at its best at 240, which it wasn't. He was at his best 10 pounds lighter than that, when he won the title.

There's nothing to prove he would've beat "most fighters" even on his best night when he weighed around 230, let along a couple years later when weighing 10 pounds heavier than that.

I thought you said you only concern yourself with what official decisions say?

:think

 

Between 1986 - 1989 holyfield would not of stood a chance, he got mike at the right time.

 

Read the thread title again, fanboy.

 

Tyson above anyone, can it be justified, it dont matter, Tyson was the best ever, and thats biggest fanboy, and dont bother replying youve wasted to much of my time already.

 

That's why Mike opened as a 25-1 favorite, right?

:nut

How?

 

I think you would like some of this...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbdRsWmZDZ4[/ame]

 

Holy ****, didn't know i'd stumbled upon Holyfields unofficial website, i'll leave you all to it..:tong:tong

 

You Gotta love the guy, and all the haters on here deep down WISH they could somehow be a little like Mike.. :hi:

 

AMBOY=Shite poster

 

You didn't. You stumbled onto a website that has a high regard for honesty and facts. Sorry that it doesn't suit your purpose.