Tyson/Douglas: Tyson got beat up by Berbick, Page and McCall in Sparring

Tyson needed Cus to live alot longer and keep his foot in his ass, he is arguably top 10 but under Cus he could've been top 3. In the end Tyson just fell apart.

 

I'm not denying you've made some very fair points in regards to the H2H ability, I just wish you'd relent a little bit in the 'Greatness' category, being what Heavyweights accomplished in their own time. Save for the outrageous hater, Wladimir has climbed a lot for most people and that's because he's wiped out much of the rated opposition of HIS ERA -- It's impossible for him to do anymore than that as there are no divisions to jump and fighters to chase. Hell, some of these guys are declining to even fight him. All I'm asking is that you recognize Mike did much of the same in his own time -- Spinks, Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Williams et al. are perhaps not the greatest batch in speculative H2H terms. However, they could not of been rated any higher at the time Tyson defeated them. They were just under him, typically the #1 or #2 guy taking Tyson himself out of the equation (who became #1 after Berbick and recognized Lineal after Spinks).

 

Bowe aside (another guy who was a nut case with a limited career due to it) - guys like Haye would have made equal noise back in that time as he did in this time. Haye vs Holyfield would have been far more interesting at CW (I'd take Holyfield in that fight) but still a competitive fighter. Haye has adequate handspeed and more than adequate power as a CW fighter and against most 1990s HWs? He'd put their lights out.

I don't even like Haye but can see that.

And I've already spelt out, big + bad skills = bad. These guys today? The blueprints are laid out on how they should train, what fight plans to employ, how to go about things - it's a different kettle of fish.

You look at "small" HW's now being 6'2, 225lbs. That was a bigger heavyweight just 15-20 years ago. The sport has moved on, but nostalgists never see this.

Nostalgia has Mohammad Ali beating Vitali Klitschko - reality? Not the case.

 

Valuev was never a guy with good skills, he was never a guy I even respected as a fighter, more of a freak show than Kimbo Slice to be honest.

Helenius is very well conditioned with a very good jab and the ability to use his size. Deontay Wilder, Tyson Fury, Wach and Pulev are all too early to know how they'll track in 4-6 years when it's "their time" but they're all big athletes who are in good condition and show more than just rudimentary skills.

Remember how many fights it took Marciano to be "ready" for a title tilt? Well to be honest, you've got a far more dominant (set of) champion(s) in todays era than you've had in a long long time.

No one other than either brother can really mount a credible challenge to the Klitschko brothers, but then I could argue that all except Lewis would lose against either brother in their prime.

But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that size and height has grown in equal measure over the last few years - HWs are evolving rapidly in terms of their agility and size.

 

In the fight he only showed any real urgency in the 8th round, when he came out strong and Buster still came back to whoop him until getting caught with that uppercut. Also the start of the 9th but more because he thought he had Buster hurt, until Douglas came back with some big shots discouraging him again and then ending it. It was not the hungry destroyer Tyson. The guy got too complacent and became too confortable after firing Rooney (if there was a weight issue it goes back to that), let some weasels get in his ear who only cared about exploiting him guiding him in the wrong direction

 

Nightmares.

 

Vitali in his prime, yes.
Vitali now? No.

You could potentially out hustle Vitali but you'd need to be a hell of a fighter to do it and you'd need to be pretty big in order to do it too.

Wladimir? You're seeing a guy who isn't just supremely conditioned and huge in size, he has some of the most polished boxing skills of any HW. He throws beautiful jabs, right hands and hooks - whilst people say he's not got an uppercut - why would he throw one when he towers over most of his opponents? He doesn't do the left jab, right hand, duck, right uppercut that Lennox used to throw as his trademark.

NBA Players aren't trained to take punches to the face. The thing about all the guys I mention is that they're coming out of a place that the old style USA heavyweight used to come from - hard as nails, poverty stricken regions in Eastern Europe where boxing is not just a cool little sport for them to play but becomes a way of life.

What is different between now and the 80s? More communist block fighters being able to compete professionally.

Imagine someone like Felix Savon or Stevenson back in the day fighting in the 80s and 90s - both guys were big sizeable athletes who threw killer combinations and were well trained in the art. They weren't able to fight.

The flood gates opened for the Soviet union fighter - that's the difference.

 

ps - the thing to like about a guy like Pulev - he was fighting Matt Skelton in his 5th professional fight and has since added Guinn, Vidoz, Walker, Rossy, Sprott and Dimitrenko to his list of wins - not bad tracking for a guy who has only had 16 fights.

 

Oh jesus. Tyson that beat Thomas IMO would have beat the Wlad that Ko'd Jefferson, all day, everyday. Vit is the much bigger test due to his chin, unorthodox stance and odd angles IMO

Anyone using David Haye as an example as to how Wlad deals with a top heavyweight needs to look hard at Wlad's career.

 

You can't possibly be serious?

 

Wow I missed that.

Hes like Bert Sugar in reverse. Hell guys like Golota and Grant could have ruled this division instead of the Klits.