Tyson/Lewis?

Well for my part, I was only mentioning Wlad as a joke because even though you do post about hundreds of fighters, you are most rabid on the topic of Wlad. I was attempting to lighten the atmosphere with a bit of humour... :roll:

But since you ask, the answer is simple... By degrading what Lennox achieved, you might be attempting to shoehorn Wlad into an all-time list by dropping him off, or dropping him below Wlad.

The Vitali win is not relevant in this case because you seem to be obsessed with Wlad, not Vitali.


BTW, I'm still waiting for the mysterious list of 5 great fighters who Holyfield faced who are better than anyone on Lennox's resume.... :think

 

....so does anyone know Lewis' reasons for turning down the $13.5m offer from Tyson's camp?

I always thought the general view was that Tyson's decisions suggested no intention of fighting Lewis. Unless the offer was a bull**** one with too many options, this obviously isn't the case.

 

OK. So, you support Wlad delaying the fight with Haye, to build up a mega fight and earn more money.


But when Lewis enters into a contract to DELAY (not cancel) his mandated fight with Tyson, by ONE fight, to allow Tyson to get his fixed fight v Seldon over and done with -

in order to pick up another strap, and therefore be fighting for for the WBA AND the WBC, not to mention a shitload more money than currently on offer

- then that's a different story?


Why? Because Lewis should have expected yet another fighter to break a legal contract to avoid fighting him???

 

I'll agree with this

 

Yes.

He accepted a few million to basically do nothing, with the proviso that the Tyson fight would happen anyway. The fight was only going to get bigger, and even though it happened later than anyone wanted (except Tyson who was the cause of the delays that followed), the final outcome proved that was indeed the case. He ended up earning 2-3 times that 13.5 figure.

 

Smart move by Lewis,

 

Well, honestly... I think that it's silly if people honestly think that when I discuss Lewis, or any other past fighter for that matter... that is somehow an underhanded attempt to raise the stock in Wlad. If you know me, then you already know that I generally don't even list ATG fighter, and I honestly don't even like discussing ATG lists all that much. Top that off with the fact that nothing that I say is going to affect other people's listing of Wlad on an ATG list anyways. I have already said that I don't list Wlad over Lewis at this point... and I don't even list Wlad as an ATG at all at this point... so exactly how would I be doing this? It's absolutely pointless to list a current fighter in an ATG list. That is a discussion for after Wlad retires.

Moving on....

It's not a secret that I am a Klitschko fan. I don't doubt that I come off as biased is some of the things that I say regarding them. However, I have never been a rabid fan.... although people would like to paint the picture that way. I have never acted like they were unbeatable. Hell, I made a post about how nervous I was before the Rahman fight. I have recently made posts about how I feel that David Haye, with the right game plan, could beat Vitali. I don't rate either on the ATG list at this point. I honestly don't believe that Vitali has enough time left to be anywhere high on anyone's ATG list by the time that he is finished. I think that Wlad is clearly making a case for his own ATG legacy... if he continues on the path that he is on. I don't believe that people will be ranking him in the top 3 or anything... but I think that he can go pretty high depending on how he closes out his career.

I have already listed the fighters that Lewis did not face during his time at least 50 times now. I really don't feel like getting into this again. I will run down a list of top contenders, and Champions that Lewis either didn't fight, or at least didn't fight in their primes.... since you mentioned Holyfield, and wanted to comapre their resumes... here you go....

Holyfield fought...

Bowe 3x
Tyson 2x (much greater version of Tyson who was Champion at the time)
Moorer 2x
Foreman (3 1/2 years before he knocked out Moorer to become undisputed)
Holmes (who had just beat Mercer)
Buster Douglas (when he was undisputed Champ, coming of consecutive wins over Berbick, McCall, and Tyson)
Michael Dokes (former WBA Champ on an 11 fight win streak)
Pinklon Thomas (Former WBC Champ)
John Ruiz 3x(when Lewis vacated the WBA title to avoid fighting him)
Chris Byrd (when Lewis vacated the IBF title to avoid fighting him)

Now... since we also know that Lewis not only dropped his WBA, and IBF titles to avoid fighting his #1 contenders... Lewis also failed to fight Wladimir Klitschko who was his Ring Mag #1 contender for over 2 years during Lewis' reign as Recognized Champ. In the end Lewis was trying to sue the helpless Tyson back into the ring, sat on the belt without fighting for another 8 months, and then retired once the WBC forced him to either rematch Klitschko or be stripped. Honestly Drexl... I don't find that to be a very impressive reign as Champ. He had a very successful career, he is an ATG... but I think that he has become highly overrated based on his accomplishments within his own era, and while recognized Champ. Head 2 head... definitely a great fighter who is a tough matchup for anyone.

 

I take on board your points but I don't think Byrd and Ruiz would have particularly added to his resume. What does a number one ranking with an alphabet group mean anymore anyway? Byrd had already been stopped by Wladimir and who wanted to see him fight Ruiz over Grant? If Lewis hadn't been robbed against Holyfield the first time the WBA would have wanted him to face Akinwande. A man who had been disqualified for holding when he was ranked number one with the WBC.

As for Wladimir, he was quite content defending his alphabet strap until he got knocked out by Sanders. Not really Lennox's fault that is it? I think you're clutching at straws if the best you can come up with are Chris Byrd and John Ruiz.

 

Wlad, HBO, and the public really pushed Lewis about the Wlad fight. Lewis always avoided the question of fighting Wlad. Manny Steward said that he told Lennox ever since Wlad was in the amateurs that he was going to be Lewis' biggest threat. Hell... they were even hyped up by squaring off against each other in the movie Ocean's 11. When people are putting the bout into movies... people want to see it.

I add Chris Byrd and John Ruiz because Lewis spent his entire career complaining that the Champions were ducking him, and wouldn't give him his title shot when he became their #1 contender. Now... for him to do that... and then turn around and do the exact same thing AS SOON as he became Champion, it doesn't sit well with me. People talk about how those fights weren't big enough, ect... however none of that makes sense because Lewis only fought TWICE from Nov 2001 until Feb 2004 when he retired. That is absolutely pathetic. Wouldn't you have rather seen Lewis fight Byrd and Ruiz... than nobody? Especially when after a year layoff after he beat Tyson... the man was scheduling himself to fight against the likes of Kirk Johnson. A fight in which the WBC even refused to sanction. Now... when the WBC refuses to even make money off of a fight... you know that it isn't a worthwhile fight. I would have MUCH rather seen him in there against Byrd, or Ruiz... who had actually just beat Johnson.

Besides that... you are completely avoiding the rest of my post where I mentioned all of the top fighters that he managed to NOT fight, or not fight during their primes when they were in the same era. I already pointed out that this was the fault of Lewis as he turned down 13.5 million to fight Tyson, which if he felt that he could beat him... that would set up a HUGE rematch... a Holyfield fight, ect... the entire division would have had to come through him for legitimacy at that point. Instead... he turned down the 13.5 million and the Tyson fight, and opted to just accept 4 million to step aside. Then... he basically lurked in the shadows of the division and didn't jump out in front until the other stars weren't shinning brightly anymore.

 

I think I'd like to see a source of reference for this 13.5mil offer. How did he avoid answering the question of fighting Wlad? Wlad was a nobody at that point and not really considered that much of a threat. Wlad was often derided, much to the dismay of his fans, by HBO. All was vindicated when he was humiliated by Corrie Sanders, a part time fighter.

I agree that I probably would have preferred to see him face Ruiz at some point just to rid the divsion of that awful clubfighter, but HBO understandably preferred a Grant fight. Remember also it was around this time that HBO were refusing to acknowledge the sanctioning bodies and have not done ever since.

That said, he still face Tua (IBF number one), Tyson (WBC number one) and Vitali (WBC number one). So he "dodged" Byrd and Ruiz, is that such a big deal?

You also seem to be forgetting that Lewis should have had a chance to fight for the linear and undisputed crown when Riddick Bowe was the encumbant of that crown. We all know what happened there. King was never going to willingly let Lewis into the title picture unless he really which was how it transpired. Are you seriously trying to suggest Lewis was the preferred opponent to Holyfield when Tyson held WBC/WBA belts?

 

It is common knowledge that Lewis turned down 13.5 million. I will give you proof this time, next time.... just know that I don't make stuff up.

"The World Boxing Council wants Tyson to defend against Lennox Lewis of England, a former champion and now its No. 1 contender. Lewis turned down a $13.5 million guarantee to fight Tyson. Lewis then accepted $4 million from King to step aside and allow Tyson to fight Seldon, with the proviso that Tyson, assuming he beat Seldon, would fight Lewis next. Tyson is expected to receive $30 million for fighting Seldon."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C06E7DD1039F937A35754C0A960958260

The point stands that Lewis shot himself in the foot by letting that fight go. Everyone and their mother knew that Tyson was going after the Holyfield fight next. Tyson would then also have the WBA title, so he wouldn't need the WBC anymore.



Second... you are definitely WAY off base when talking about Wlad being a nobody at that point. Wlad was ranked #1 by ring mag, and was VERY highly touted by the media and fans. One interview on HBO Merchant just came out and said "Everyone only wants to hear one thing from you, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO FIGHT WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO?"... Lewis just looked shocked, smiled, and didn't answer. HBO was DEFINITELY not downplaying Wlad, most people acted like they were overhyping him. Wlad being beat by Sanders has nothing to do with the entire 2 years prior when he was calling Lewis out, and Lewis was basically just sitting on his title. Wald got bored waiting for that fight, and complacent with himself and the sport which is what lead to him coming in unprepared against Sanders in the first place. It's isn't like Lewis hadn't recently been knocked out himself anyways.

 

Why is then that most of the media and most fans in general feel that it was Tyson who did the ducking and not Lewis? What did that 4mil get Tyson? It was never the idea for them to lose the WBC title, I'm pretty sure of that.

So do you think Wladimir would have beaten Lewis then? I don't think Wlad's loss had anything to do with under preparation, it was a fundamental flaw in his style that he has now rectified. Sadly that has now been to the detriment to the aesthetics of watching him fight.

 

Tyson is the slugger in this, the predator. If Tyson was scared I dont understand why he was always going straight forward just like he did against all his opponents. Forget the fight with Kevin McBride, Jeff Fenech (Tyson's trainer at the moment) try to make Tyson move and wait along the ropes in the first round which is absolutely stupid.

If Tyson/Lewis fought in cruiserweight. Tyson win by K.O in the 1st round

 

Lewis was NOT offered $13.5 million to fight Tyson back in 96. He would have surely accepted it. King was protecting his cash cow Tyson from Lewis. The courts ordered Tyson to fight Lewis as the WBC had promised Lewis but King wanted Tyson to fight his fighter WBA champ Seldon. Tyson/King promised Lewis a shot at Tyson after Seldon - plus $4 million in stepaside money as an added gift for his patience. Lewis accepted it as he was promised the next shot at Tyson. Tyson of course KOed Seldon in 1 on Sept 7 1996 but then King and Tyson vacated the WBC title three weeks later rather than fight Lewis. King wanted Tyson to meet another one of his fighters - Evander Holyfield in Nov. 96. Lewis then defeated another King fighter Oliver McCall in Feb 97 to regain the WBC title. It's all explained in this book called "Heavyweight Armageddon: The Tyson-Lewis Championship Battle."

 

Tyson looked very antsy but how could he not be given the size of the event? We'll never really know what was going through his head on the way to the ring. It takes willpower that none of us could ever imagine possessing to get mentally prepared for an event of that magnitude. EVERYBODY, and I mean everybody, was talking about Tyson/Lewis.