Tyson or Frazier? Who ranks higher on your heavyweight ATG list?

Spinks was a GREAT light heavy, probably top four ATG. But he wasn't too good as a heavyweight. Holmes knocked the crap out of him 9 rounds out of 15 in their second fight (at 36, no less), Cooney never got over Holmes, and who can remember the name of the other heavyweight tomato can he beat? Witherspoon, Smith, Page, possibly Tucker...all would have beat him at the time.

Holmes was 38 years old and had 20 months ring rust when Mike beat him. And Mike said himself prime Holmes would have beat him. Said the same about Ali...and Foreman:

"Frank Lotierzo, on the record for Cox's Corner, said it best 28 years ago: "I haven't a morsel of a doubt that Tyson just doesn't match up with Foreman, and he knows it. If Tyson of 1990 was afraid of an old Foreman, think how petrified he would of been of a prime Foreman, the one who stared down both Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali in 1973 and 1974."

According to highly respected boxing writer and historian Frank Lotierzo, he went to out to eat with Georgie Benton, Lou Duva and Bobby Goodman on June 1, 1990. (all were in Atlantic City for the Holyfield - McDonagh fight) At the time, Goodman was Don King's matchmaker. Lotierzo had known Benton for many years, and through him Duva. He had been introduced to Goodman a couple weeks before Tyson fought Larry Holmes at the Convention Center in Atlantic City in January 1988.

While the group was eating that day in 1990, according to Lotierzo, who has written and spoken about this extensively, Benton said, "Bobby, what's up with Foreman and Tyson, how come they're not fighting each other on the 16th? Isn't that the fight that King was trying to make?"

Goodman then said, "Georgie, You'll never believe this but, ****in' Tyson is scared **** less of Foreman and wants no part of him. I was there when Don was trying to make the fight. He was telling Tyson that Foreman represented huge money, plus he was old and slow and would be no problem. Tyson got up and screamed at King saying, 'I'm not fight in' that ****in' animal, if you love the mother****er so much, you fight him!'"

Lotierzo also wrote and has said that all through the lunch Goodman, Duva, Benton, and himself shared stories on the fight game. In addition to what he had already said about Tyson and Foreman, Goodman added later, "oh I remember why else Tyson wanted no parts of Foreman. He said that King had found out from Steve Lott that Tyson and Cus D'Amato used to watch the Frazier-Foreman fight over and over."

Goodman went on to say that Tyson loved that fight because he was awed by Foreman's power and Frazier's toughness and how he kept getting up after every knockdown. Goodman also told the group that Lott told King that Cus sat alongside Tyson saying, "It's suicide against Foreman if you're short and fight a swarming attacking style like Marciano or Frazier." Cus, of course, never dreamed that Foreman could be a possible Tyson opponent so many years later.

According to Goodman, Cus said the only fighters who had a chance against Foreman were, tall rangy fighters who could fight him from a distance while moving away from him, and no way any swarmer could beat Foreman by going to him.

Lotierzo has written on the record that he subsequently talked to people who were involved with promoting Foreman, including Ron Weathers who promoted some of Foreman's fights after his coming out of retirement. Weathers told Lotierzo the same story. The fight didn't happen because of Tyson's fear of losing to Big George.

Bob Arum also said that he dreamed of making Foreman -Tyson. He said it would be huge money and that Foreman would stop Tyson easier than he did Frazier. Lotierzo also wrote he has heard the same story, of Tyson fearing Foreman from George's brother Roy who was his business manager.

For people who claim this is only "hearsay," a journalist's sources, undisputed by 4 people who were there, including Mike Tyson, for 28 years, that claim is absurd. They simply do not want to believe Tyson was afraid. (Mike himself doesn't deny it, but does point out that there is a difference in being afraid of losing a fight and being a coward)".

 

Agreed. Spinks had 4 wins at Heavy. All 4 were against shot fighters. 2 of those many feel he was lucky to win (Holmes). One against a no-name (steffan or whatever), and one he was dead even on the cards with at the time of the stoppage (Cooney). To say he was unproven at Heavy is an understatement.

 

Ellis and Quarry? The once middleweight fellow wasn´t even the size of Spinks after he was a seasoned HW. Then we got Quarry, who many think was a tough little attrition puncher who would be a good Cruiser. Managed to lose against aging Machen, Ellis himself and got stopped again before Ali and Frazier too.
A durable fighter who Frazier "stopped" was Chuvalo, which could be compared to also very durable Pinklon Thomas. The thing is, it wasn´t Fraziers power per se that stopped Chuvalo, it was his injured eye:

"Chuvalo later said his right eye was injured when he fought Archie Ray on June 22, 1967 (4 weeks prior the fight). Chuvalo said Ray's head accidentally collided into his cheek bone. "My eye was swelling up, and I went back into the gym and started sparring too soon, and my eye kept blowing up in the gym," Chuvalo explained. "So when I fought Joe, I was damaged goods.""

"Frazier opened a cut under Chuvalo's right eye. Mark Kram of Sports Illustrated reported: "The cut was shaped like a scimitar and it went to the bone (later it was discovered that the bone was broken, requiring surgery), and the eye, seemingly ready to burst, was just a slit. There was another cut on the outside of his left eye, and a gash on the top of his scalp.""

Bugner might have been a better win of the fellows Frazier fought than the guys he met on his champion run before. The ref scored that fight pretty close, from what I remember it wasn´t that special. But big Bugner was at least comparable to the bigger moving guys like Biggs, Tucker, Thomas, Smith or Williams. Some of the fighters Frazier fought from 67 to Foreman were pretty shitty, boxers Tyson didn´t have in his championship run.

 

I actually think they would beat Berbick, too. Styles, man. I still like Berbick better.

 

If only other posters on this thread were as objective.

 

Think so too that Quarry or Ellis could outpoint Berbick, like Gordon and Snipes did. In contrast to others, he went another 15 with prime Larry Holmes too. And thats exactly the difference between Tyson and Frazier: Frazier did tango for 7 with Quarry, not allowed to go into 8 because he couldn´t see, while Tyson made Berbick do the chicken dance in two rounds, taking like 10 punches himself.

 

he only fought four five fights at heavyweight anyway. Beat Holmes, barely beat him the second time (if he even did), beat Cooney and Tanstad (so what), and lost to Tyson. Holmes I and Cooney were the only great wins of his brief stint at heavyweight.

 

If those wins were remarkable for Joe, then Mike's wins over his competition must've been otherworldly.

 

#1, what does this post have to do with Tyson/Frazier and their respected places in history?
#2, this piece has been debunked years ago. I've talked with Monte Cox and Steve Lott and Lott claims to have never said any of the statements Cox claimed he said. After conversing with both men, Monte Cox instantly told Steve he'd retract the article. This was done on Facebook a few years back.

 

I should have expected that, once I saw your picture. Tyson did have some amazing wins, over Berbick and Michael Spinks. But Larry's washed up, past it for about five years. You call that impressive? I mean, it was an impressive display of power, most of Tyson's fights are. Say, tho, give me a few good examples of when Tyson got pounded pretty badly and still won.

 

Well he did win against a prime Mercer and was a bit competitive with Holyfield for 12 rounds. Watch the Ruddock fights bro.

 

I don't mark the 90s period as Larry's washed-up point. Love the Mercer fight. He fared rather well vs. Holyfield and McCall. Beat Ferguson and Maurice Harris. Second best comeback next to Foreman's. And I have seen the Ruddock fights, Ruddock fought Tyson back, but Tyson was never seriously hurt. Razor Ruddock, is that all you can come up with?

 

I'm done with this thread, it's got me sick. If somebody wants to talk to me, they'll have to catch me on another thread. I don't know if I'm in the mood to talk about how Tyson would do against, say-any fighter on the planet! That is, unless you say why he would win.

 

+
Ruddock hit harder than anyone else Tyson fought and he ate Ruddock's bombs like it was nothing which is a better feat than being hurt and winning the fight again and he still carried power into the late rounds even if he was tired as **** just look at when Tyson knocked down Douglas in the eight-round.